Interviewer
Prime Minister, first of all, where do the Soviets now stand on Germany, are they moving towards the position of the West?
Prime Minister
They accept that unification will take place. I do not think they fully accept the NATO consequences of unification yet and one has pointed out that East Germany is joining West Germany, West Germany is already part of NATO and therefore it follows that Germany as a whole will be in NATO and it is absolutely vital to us all that American troops stay in Europe and the only place for them to stay, apart from Britain, is in Germany.
And I think they accept that argument, but the fact is that they are still apprehensive about the unification of Germany—not surprising, they lost 27 million people, dead, in that war and they really want some kind of reassurance if the whole of Germany is going to be in NATO, some other kind of reassurance. [end p1]
And that we are going to have to work at very hard, it will not be one thing, it will be several things and the United States is thinking about it, we are thinking about it because we understand the reasons why they need it and the whole atmosphere is such that we wish to satisfy them on this point. Because we are all going forward together, it is quite remarkable.
Interviewer
Mr Gorbachev seems to envisage the two political alliances—the Warsaw Pact and NATO—dissolving and becoming one European union. Do you believe that is realistic and possible?
Prime Minister
I do not believe it is realistic at the moment and I believe in working with what we have got at the moment and taking it a step further so the position evolves. In twenty or so years time, I do not know what the position will be. But at the moment we have a very good working organisation, certainly we have in NATO and that must stay in being. It has been our defence and ensured peace for forty-five years and we must keep it in being.
There was a meeting of the Warsaw Pact here yesterday and they had a very interesting communique, of the kind they could not have issued even a year ago. Now we have got those and they can work in the framework of the Helsinki Accords. So let us work with what we have got and see then where it takes us. [end p2]
Interviewer
You spent the day with the President. Is it your impression that this is a man who is in control of events in this country?
Prime Minister
It is my impression that Mikhail Gorbachevhe is a man with a vision, he knows what he wants to do, he has got a good idea of how to do it, he understands the difficulties but he is not going to be overcome by the difficulties because the opportunities are so great. And if they achieve the transition from a totally centrally command and controlled economy to a free economy with people having both the incentive and the responsibility and the effort to take things forward, it will be the greatest achievement this half century.
Interviewer
Do you sense that he sees the danger of a man like Boris Yeltsin at the moment?
Prime Minister
No, I do not. I think that he and Mr Ryzhkov are concerned to take the reform and the progress forward and concerned to see that they do get the advances they want so that will bring a higher standard of living. And it is the how to do it and how to get the message to everyone and in that they may well need help in training and of course we could help to give that.
Interviewer
Are you optimistic about Gorbachev surviving? [end p3]
Prime Minister
Yes, yes. You look sceptical—yes!