Caron Keating, BBC
Prime Minister, Blue Peter viewers have been working very hard for the future of the people of Kampuchea. It is great that you are showing such a personal interest in the country. But now that the Vietnamese are leaving, will the British Government be able to give long-term aid on a larger scale?
Prime Minister
I think when the Vietnamese have left and when we have some hope of getting a truly representative government in Kampuchea, yes I think the British Government will be prepared to give aid and that is what I promised when I went to see so many of them in the refugee camp. [end p1]
But the first thing you know is to get the Vietnamese out. We hope they will go out but it is going to take a time yet. And then really the next thing is to ensure that Pol Pot does not get back into government because they would all fear him.
So Prince Sihanouk, who is their Head of State, was before the Vietnamese invaded, has been working very hard with all the other people from all the other groups to try to make arrangements for a government that will be suitable for everyone.
I saw him when I visited the refugee camp in Thailand and he came here, into this very room, just recently to tell me how things were progressing. So there is quite a lot to do before we get a government of the people's choice.
Caron Keating, BBC
What do you think we are going to be able to do to make sure that Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge are kept out of the country?
Prime Minister
We are very active with other countries, particularly through the United Nations, we are a Permanent Member of the Security Council, and I think most people agree that Pol Pot himself could not go back, nor some of his supporters who were very active in some of the terrible things that happened. [end p2]
So there is quite an agreement about that. Some of the Khmer Rouge of course are very different but there is quite a lot of agreement that Pol Pot himself and his immediate helpers must not go back.
Caron Keating, BBC
Although Pol Pot is actually on the border at the moment. It said only in Thursday's paper that he is actually there.
Prime Minister
Yes indeed, and of course there are camps of his supporters and the Khmer Rouge would have to be some of the people who took part in the government. You know, I went to that refugee camp and we do help a lot both with running the camps, we give something like £13 million to running that particular camp, a fantastic number of people there.
And then when there is a special programme for Kampuchea we give some money. For example last July, there was a special programme, a special World Food Aid programme, so we gave some money then. Then there was another Save the Children programme so we gave I think half a million pounds then. And now there is going to be another programme, a special programme, for mothers and babies in Kampuchea and we are going to give a quarter of a million pounds to that. [end p3]
So we do not give directly at the moment to the people in Cambodia, through their government, because we do not recognise their government. But we give whenever there is a programme run by some of the people who we know will make certain the money gets to the people.
Caron Keating, BBC
So what you are saying is, once the Vietnamese go, your government will be quite happy then to give long-term aid?
Prime Minister
Oh yes, because then we shall get a government in which we have confidence, led by Prince Sihanouk.
Caron Keating, BBC
You mentioned the United Nations. Do you not find it appalling that somebody like Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge are still recognised as part of a coalition there? How can that happen?
Prime Minister
I can tell you how it can happen. The Khmer Rouge were the people who took a very prominent part in fighting the Vietnamese. I think there are probably two parts to the Khmer Rouge, there are those who supported Pol Pot and then there is a much much more [end p4] reasonable grouping within that title “Khmer Rouge”.
Caron Keating, BBC
Do you really think so?
Prime Minister
Well, that is what I am assured by people who know. So you will find that the more reasonable ones of the Khmer Rouge will have to play some part in the future government, but only a minority part.
I share your utter horror that these terrible things went on in Kampuchea, the United Nations could not do anything about them, none of us could do anything about them, they were absolutely terrible. But then I think all of a sudden it burst upon the world what was happening and then the relief planes flew into Thailand with the food for the refugees that were flooding into Thailand and it really was a great big United Nations effort.
Caron Keating, BBC
But there are still an awful lot of people left in the main body of Kampuchea? [end p5]
Prime Minister
Oh indeed yes, indeed yes, and a lot of course of refugees still on the camps on the Thailand border. And don't you think it has been rather marvellous of the Thailand people to accept those refugees into those big refugee camps? It really has.
Caron Keating, BBC
Well it might be rather more marvellous if Thailand did something about it though, don't you think?
Prime Minister
I went to have a look at the big Site B Camp, I found it most impressive. They cost a lot of money to run, to which we all give, as I indicated. There are some British people there, some doctors, nurses and some other people doing the general work of the camp. They were absolutely devoted and they felt a tremendous sense of satisfaction that they were doing something really good.
There are masses of children there. A lot of them, the young boys, belong to the Boy Scouts. Each family is given a bamboo hut and each family is given a whole set of cooking pots and I took out £500,000 worth of gifts to them because there are so many people and they are taught to cook, they are taught to look after their families well. The food comes calculated for each family each week. They are then taught to weave carpets, they are taught to do needlework, they are taught to do so many things. [end p6]
But you can imagine, when you have lived like that, in a very big camp and there are rows and rows and rows of these bamboo huts and you have had all your food coming to you to cook, it is going to be quite different when you go back to the villages in Kampuchea and I think that they are going to need a lot of help and attention when they do and we are certainly prepared to give some of it.
Caron Keating, BBC
It is marvellous but the sad thing is a lot of them are practically living like prisoners there. They cannot go back home but they ought to be able to go back into their country and live as they did before?
Prime Minister
I think everyone is very well aware, certainly Prince Sihanouk is, that when they get back there is always a fear of intimidation and that is why Pol Pot himself could never return because what one is struggling towards is a government that they choose because they have suffered so much, really suffered so much, so we are very pleased to help. [end p7]
Caron Keating, BBC
By the end of 1989 most of the Vietnamese should have left so we have a relatively short time …
Prime Minister
Let us hope so, let us hope so.
Caron Keating, BBC
Is it not a worry though that Pol Pot during that time, if nothing is done by the West urgently, that Pol Pot will have got in again, will have taken control of the country? How can that be stopped?
Prime Minister
The West is working steadily together and these days we work much more closely though the United Nations than we used to and it was because we work much more closely that we have seen the end of the Iran&slash;Iraq war.
We are in touch with the top members of the Security Council, we are also in touch with Prince Sihanouk. The French, for very obvious reasons, because it was part of their territory once, also are taking a very active part.
Now the key people to the Pol Pot matter really are the Chinese, it is persuading them that he should not go back. [end p8]
Caron Keating, BBC
Do you think they will be able to do that?
Prime Minister
I think the Chinese and the Soviet Union, and do not forget it really was a battle at one stage between the two kinds of communism, I think that they too, both the Chinese and the Soviet Union, wish to see peace brought to Kampuchea and will both be prepared to be very helpful, at least certainly the Soviet Union is.
You know had we had this interview say two years ago, I think I would have been a bit more pessimistic but don't you find there is a new spirit in the world now? It is that it is time to settle some of these very very old problems. Mr Gorbachev is taking the view that some of these problems too must be settled, being very helpful in the settlement in Angola, very helpful in trying to persuade the Vietnamese to withdraw.
So there is a different spirit now and it is marvellous that the children are doing these extra things, extra things, because I know they have done so much, just at this time and I want to say to them, we give to things like the World Food Programme, to the Save the Children, to the United Nations Children's Fund, because we know that by giving that way and also through the Red Cross, the money will get, and the goods will get to the people they are intended to help. [end p9]
Caron Keating, BBC
I think it is great that your government is giving money, but at the end of the day the children of England have given more than you have and I know you say you have got to wait until the Vietnamese leave but it is not, all that kind of help, is not really helping the people whose children are dying of dirty water at the moment. Don't you think you could be giving them more emergency aid right now when they need it?
Prime Minister
Well look, as I indicated, we have given a great deal to the refugees in Thailand, indeed Thailand could not have accepted them, and I have been round those camps and they are very well run. As I said, we have given about £13 million to that and whenever there is a big programme coming up, we give to that programme.
When you say “we” have given, it is the tax-payers' money we use so the children are raising extra money on top really of what their parents are contributing through the tax-prayer. (Retake)
Caron Keating, BBC
The children of Britain are hoping to raise £1 million for the children of Kampuchea, why aren't the government giving that much? [end p10]
Prime Minister
The Government gives when there is a programme, like the one you are doing, and I indicated that the government would be giving quarter of a million pounds, but then it is not long since we gave half a million pounds to another programme and not long before that we gave £100,000 to another programme. We do not recognise that government in Kampuchea … (Retake)
Caron Keating, BBC
The children of Britain are hoping to raise £1 million to give to the people of Kampuchea, why aren't the government giving more than that?
Prime Minister
We are giving to this particular project a quarter of a million pounds, as you know, but it is not long since we gave half a million pounds to the World Food Programme and not long before that we gave another £100,000 to another project. When there is a specific project we give to it because we know it is going to get to the children. In the meantime, we have to help to keep going the big refugee camps in Thailand, we have to help to keep those going. [end p11]
You know whenever there is a disaster, Britain is among the first to give, whether it is hurricanes in Jamaica, floods in Bangladesh or earthquakes in Armenia. But you give twice, first to the specific project and then to keep the continuous refugees going so that they have some hope that one day they will return to Kampuchea and to their own homes, under a government of their own choice.
Caron Keating, BBC
I know you went to the refugee camps and I went into the main bulk of the country. Would you actually like to visit Phnom Penh yourself?
Prime Minister
I would love to go, I would love to go one day when it is free Phnom Penh, not as it is now.
Caron Keating, BBC
What do you think of our Appeal?
Prime Minister
I am delighted. I think it is marvellous what the children do and I think it is marvellous what the Blue Peter children have done. [end p12]
You wanted something a little bit special for the auction, to add to it. I just have, I collect these little paper weights and they have brought out a new one. The last time I think I was on a children's programme it was a badger, this time they have brought out a little koala bear, a Crown Derby Koala Bear. Now it is Australia, but that is one of the nearest countries I have been to Kampuchea and perhaps someone would like to buy that to add to your Appeal.
Caron Keating, BBC
Thank you very much. Everybody who gives us something for one of our sales we give them a Bring and Buy Sale for Kampuchea sticker, so there you are, if you would like to wear that.
Prime Minister
Marvellous, marvellous, I will put it up immediately and you will let me know how much it raises.
Caron Keating, BBC
I will indeed, thank you very much. [end p13]
Prime Minister
And thank the children and Happy Christmas to everyone.