TUC
Q1. Mr. Arthur Davidson
asked the Prime Minister when last she met the TUC.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
I met the economic committee of the TUC on 25 June.
Mr. Davidson
Will the Prime Minister sit in with the Chancellor of the Exchequer this evening when he has discussions with the TUC and listen carefully to what the TUC has to say about the dangers of the cuts on the scale that she envisages? Those who are dependent upon public services, such as places in old people's homes and meals on wheels, will be hit hard. Will the right hon. Lady bear in mind that areas such as North-East Lancashire, which she has deprived of intermediate area status, will be doubly hard hit?
The Prime Minister
We are trying to contain public expenditure to the level of expenditure this year. To do otherwise would be to impose extra taxation and rates on people who are already overtaxed and over-rated. The hon. and learned Member obviously wishes that we had more resources to spend, and there are many areas in which I should like to increase spending. The best way to get more resources is to encourage the TUC to urge its members to increase output per person. Until we do that we shall not be able to increase our standard of living, either privately or publicly.
Sir Paul Bryan
When the Prime Minister meets the members of the TUC, will she tell them of the encouraging results of the Geneva conference on refugees, which she initiated? Will she confirm that the nations attending the conference have promised resettlement places in their countries to no fewer than 260,000 refugees, and will she tell the House how many of those refugees will be taken from the transit camps of Hong Kong, which hold more than 66,000 refugees?
The Prime Minister
I agree with my hon. Friend that the refugee conference in Geneva was a great success, in that it managed to get many more promises for resettlement and a lot more money than we should have had without it. It also [column 876]managed to persuade the Vietnamese to stem the flow of people being forced to leave Vietnam, so it was a tremendous success.
We shall take refugees preferentially from Hong Kong. I pay tribute to the Governor of Hong Kong and to the staff there for the wonderful work that they have done over this difficult period.
I am certain that everyone in this country—and that includes the TUC—will welcome refugees from tyranny.
Mr. James Lamond
When the right hon. Lady met the economic committee of the TUC, did she give it any advice to pass on to ordinary working people about what to do when they receive their 85p tax reduction? After they have paid the increases in rent and rates, VAT, petrol, school milk, school dinners and prescription charges, should they use the remaining 5p to buy their council house or to buy British Aerospace shares from themselves?
The Prime Minister
Strangely enough, I did not encounter any complaints from the TUC about reductions in taxation on earnings. That reduction gives everyone the opportunity to earn more in order to do the very things that the hon. Gentleman enumerated.
Mr. Peter Bottomley
When my right hon. Friend next meets the TUC, perhaps she can ask it to tell its members that if they want to avoid the biggest inflationary increase that this country is likely to see in the next year, when the Labour Party puts its subscription up from £1.20 to £5 they can leave it?
The Prime Minister
I am sure that is sound advice.
Mr. Greville Janner
Is the Prime Minister aware of the human effect of the public spending cuts that she is introducing, and that my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Lamond) was right in saying that the real cost falls on those who can least bear it because in areas such as Leicestershire the authorities are already proposing to close children's homes, old people's homes, convalescent homes, and to cut domiciliary care and those services which people desperately need who cannot cope without them?
[column 877]The Prime Minister
I repeat that public expenditure for this year is being contained at the level it was last year. Therefore, people are having to pay the same amount in taxes and rates, in a different pattern, and we are also having to borrow very heavily. Those who wish to spend more on the public sector have three choices—to tax more, to borrow more, or to encourage people to produce more.
BATH
Q2. Mr. Chris Patten
asked the Prime Minister if she will pay an official visit to Bath.
The Prime Minister
I have no plans to do so.
Mr. Patten
I thank my right hon. Friend for what is, I hope, a temporarily discouraging reply. Will she make it clear when she visits other constituencies that cuts in public spending should fall just as much on those who administer public services as on the services they administer and on the contracts they place with private industry? Can she also make clear what steps she will take to see that that happens, for example, by setting up a special unit in No. 10 Downing Street or the Cabinet Office to monitor it?
The Prime Minister
We have tried to ensure that the cuts fall more on the administrators than on the services themselves. It was with that in mind that we have a 3 per cent. cut in the Civil Service and a ban on recruitment for three months. After that, the amount of administration should be contained in the budget for each Department. We are also to cut one level of administration from the National Health Service. I believe that the best way to cut administration is to have a strict budget and to leave it to Government Departments and the local authorities to make cuts in administration and not in the services.
NORTH-EAST LANCASHIRE
Q3. Mr. Trippier
asked the Prime Minister if she will visit North-East Lancashire.
The Prime Minister
I hope to do so during the recess.
[column 878]Mr. Trippier
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it will be extremely difficult for Members who represent North-East Lancashire constituencies to explain to their constituents why there should be increases in telephone charges when the Post Office last year made a profit of £375 million? Does she also agree that it will be more difficult for us to explain the increases in postal charges when those of us who come from North-East Lancashire are still receiving letters from our constituents asking us to vote for or against the reintroduction of capital punishment, the Abortion Bill, and the legislation to make the wearing of seat belts compulsory?
The Prime Minister
I think that my hon. Friend has voiced the feelings of many people that the standard of service is not as high as the charges in either the telephone or the postal service. It is difficult when there is a monopoly service to make comparisons. There is no standard of comparison. There is no substitute for competition. When there is a monopoly there is no competition. My right hon. Friend Sir Keith Josephthe Secretary of State for Industry is considering the structure of the Post Office and the monopoly itself.
Mr. Kilroy-Silk
When the right hon. Lady visits Lancashire will she attempt to explain how her policy of closing hospitals and old people's homes will increase output per man?
The Prime Minister
I hope that those who can increase output per person will do so now that they have been given the incentives.
Mr. Fletcher-Cooke
When my right hon. Friend visits North-East Lancashire, she will receive a very warm welcome. Will she take the opportunity to explain to the people there—who understand these things better than do the people in some areas—that there are now great opportunities for an industrial policy that will get this country moving forward again?
The Prime Minister
There are great opportunities. Taxation is lower, there are fewer controls, and opportunities are very much greater. For the first time industries can go ahead in a way that they have not been able to do for many years. It is often said that if one gives people increased [column 879]responsibility some of them fear it, and that is so.
Mr. James Callaghan
Who said that?
The Prime Minister
Bernard Shaw. He said
“Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.”
But some, of course, will take advantage of the opportunities for enterprise that are open to them.
SCOTLAND
Q4. Mr. Eldon Griffiths
asked the Prime Minister if she will make a statement on her recent official visit to Scotland.
The Prime Minister
I was glad to be able to visit Edinburgh on 11 July and to see at first hand the effective work that is being done by my right hon. Friend George Youngerthe Secretary of State for Scotland and his departments. I visited a medical supplies factory, a hospital, police headquarters and a fisheries protection vessel as well as St. Andrew's House, where I had useful discussions with my right hon. Friend and his staff; I also called on the Lord Provost of Edinburgh.
Mr. Griffiths
Now that the statute book has been wiped clean of the Scotland Act and the Wales Act, what further plans has my right hon. Friend for that type of devolution on which the Government were elected—devolution from an over-large State to the individual citizen?
The Prime Minister
There is, of course, a great deal of administrative devolution already in Scotland. One thing that impressed me was that 8,000 people administer Scotland in Scotland and only 60 in Whitehall, so administrative devolution is very much in being. My hon. Friend asked about real devolution, that is, giving power back to the people. We hope to continue the cuts in taxation. We hope also substantially to reduce the number of controls on local authorities and on industry. That is real devolution.
Mr. William Hamilton
Does the right hon. Lady recall that during the previous Parliament the Tory Opposition [column 880]campaigned vigorously for the dispersal of Civil Service jobs to Scotland? Will she undertake that those jobs will still go to Scotland in the numbers planned by the Labour Government? When does she think that unemployment in Scotland will, as a direct result of her policies, increase to 300,000 or 400,000?
The Prime Minister
A statement on dispersal will be made within a few minutes. It would be better if I were not to trespass on that. I hope that the ultimate result of our policies will be to increase genuine employment.
Mr. Henderson
Not only my right hon. Friend's recent visit to Edinburgh but her previous visits to Scotland in general have been appreciated. Will she confirm that Scotland provides a marvellous environment in which both to live and to work, not only for civil servants but for science-based industries, which would find an admirable quality of staff in Scotland?
The Prime Minister
I hope to visit more science-based industries in Scotland and to make other visits. I hope also to spend part of my holidays there.
Mr. David Steel
When the right hon. Lady and her ministerial colleagues refer to devolution in Scotland, will they leave out, in that context, discussion of the proposed Select Committee on Scottish Affairs? Is she aware that we had one such Committee before and that it was not a riotous success?
The Prime Minister
I did not include it in my reply.
Mr. Donald Stewart
Since the Tory vote in the referendum was influenced by the advice of Lord Home to vote “No” on the ground that he would see that a better Bill was produced than the Scotland Act, what representations has the right hon. Lady had from the noble Lord which would indicate that he has any intention of carrying out his promise?
The Prime Minister
I am in quite frequent touch with my right hon. and noble Friend Lord Home. His advice is always excellent. I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will consult my right hon. Friend Norman St. John Stevasthe Leader of the House about future talks on devolution.