PRIME MINISTER
Engagements
Q1. Sir John Biggs-Davison
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 5 March.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today. This evening I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty the Queen.
Sir John Biggs-Davison
Does my right hon. Friend agree that, in all this talk of victors and vanquished in the mining tragedy, the achievement of modern mines, high productivity and competitive energy prices will be the true victory for Britain and for Britain's miners, for whom Conservative Members retain, despite all that has happened, the greatest respect?
The Prime Minister
Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend that we want a prosperous coal industry. It is therefore necessary for the industry as a whole to convince the customer that it can provide a secure supply at highly competitive prices.
Mr. Canavan
Is the Prime Minister aware that the miners' strike is not yet over, because the Scottish miners in pits such as Polmaise are as determined as ever not to go back until they get an assurance on the future of their pits and the reinstatement of all miners sacked during the strike? Will the Prime Minister stop demanding her full pound of flesh and insisting that miners be punished twice for the same alleged offence—first by the law courts and then by the kangaroo courts of MacGregor and Wheeler? It is they who should be sacked for vandalising the coal industry.
The Prime Minister
With certain exceptions, and the hon. Gentleman refers to one, the return to work in the coal mines has been orderly and at a high rate. The strike is very nearly over and I hope that the mines will soon get back to normal working, because that is the way to build a highly competitive industry again. I do not think that there can be an amnesty in any way for those who have committed serious criminal offences.
Q2. Mr. Bill Walker
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 5 March.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Walker
Has my right hon. Friend noticed that despite the appalling problems that have been created by the miners' strike there has been a great sense of unity in other sections of the nation and productivity has increased dramatically, particularly in the steel industry at Ravenscraig in Scotland? Is this not an example which the coal industry should now emulate?
The Prime Minister
I congratulate the workers at Ravenscraig on their most excellent record throughout the coal strike. Indeed, we should congratulate the steel workers as a whole, who put up production last year in spite of the coal strike. I also agree with my hon. Friend that the strike has demonstrated the enormous unity of other workers in the country, who are determined to carry on with their own jobs.
[column 773]Mr. Douglas
Will the Prime Minister reflect a little on the answer that she gave a moment ago in relation to the amnesty? While her Secretary of State for Energy says that it would be wrong to ask men to go back to work with those who have committed serious offences, will she take cognisance of the fact that in the Comrie colliery in Fife and Castlehill colliery and Solgirth, which are part of the Longannet complex, my men and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan) are saying that they will not go back to work until the men who led the strike and who have been convicted, often of minor offences, are told that they are able to return to employment? Will she use her good offices with the NCB in Scotland to ensure that we do not have a Pontius Pilate school of management, but management that allows men to go back to work in unity and with self-respect?
The Prime Minister
Serious criminal acts have been committed during the dispute against both persons and property of working mines, and against the property of the National Coal Board. People who commit such acts must expect to face the consequences. Other matters are for the management of the NCB. The hon. Gentleman is very well aware that when normal working is restored there is a procedure through which anyone can go if he wishes to do so.
Mr. Needham
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the only solution to the teachers' strike is through conciliation and arbitration, and that without the introduction of the new assessment procedure the only way that money will become available is either through higher local government rates or fewer teachers?
The Prime Minister
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for putting across that point. If there is to be extra money for teachers, it could come by having fewer teachers, or it could come from elsewhere, out of the education budget, or the expenditure budget. To give more than has been offered to those teachers would in fact mean cutting other people off from jobs.
Dr. Owen
While Lord Bridge is investigating specific cases of ministerial authorisation of phone tapping, who will investigate the allegations that M15 may have gone beyond the authorisation and made phone taps without specific ministerial authorisation? Will the Prime Minister make it clear that there has been no change in the practice of making individual assessments about phone tapping, other than offices, and that there is no blanket phone-tapping authorisation?
The Prime Minister
I hope to be studying the result of Lord Bridge's inquiry later this evening. It has arrived, but I have not in fact seen it. With regard to any other allegations, for example of unauthorised interception, I and my right hon. and learned Friend Leon Brittanthe Home Secretary are accountable to Parliament for the work of the security service. It is for us to satisfy ourselves that it conducts its operations strictly in accordance with the terms of its directive and that its responsibility is fully discharged, as it always has been.
Q3. Mr. Parry
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 5 March.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Parry
Will the Prime Minister reflect today on the prayer of St. Francis of Assisi, which she quoted [column 774]outside 10 Downing Street on being elected Prime Minister? Does she not agree that she has stood that great prayer on its head, and that where there was faith, there is now doubt, where there was hope, there is now despair, where there was pardon, there is now injury, and where there was joy, there is now sadness? If the right hon. Lady has any compassion, which I do not believe she has, will she consider an amnesty for miners who were defending their jobs, communities and families? Will the right hon. Lady have compassion for their families and children? If she does not, she will go down to posterity as a cruel, vindictive, ruthless and uncaring hypocrite.
The Prime Minister
The worst discord that this country has seen for a very long time has been created by the leadership of the National Union of Mineworkers. It has split its own union and set family against family, brother against brother, and miner against miner. With regard to the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's question, there can be no amnesty for serious criminal offences.
Q4. Mr. Fox
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 5 March.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Fox
Will my right hon. Friend take time today to condemn the scurrilous contents of the full page advertisement in The Times, which was inserted by the drug companies? Is it not disgraceful that those with a vested interest—[Hon. Members: “Yes” .]—should prey upon the fears of the sick and the elderly in this fashion?
The Prime Minister
Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend that it is disgraceful that they should prey upon the fears of elderly people, who will continue to receive the drugs that they need on the National Health Service, even though they might be in a slightly different form from that to which they have been accustomed. It is the chemical, not the brand name, which creates the cure.
Mr. Kinnock
In view of the fact that the rate of male unemployment in the South Wales coalfield and other similar areas is now 20 per cent. and more, will the Prime Minister tell us precisely what she is going to do to reduce unemployment in those areas?
The Prime Minister
If the right hon. Gentleman is referring particularly to closures that may come about because of the situation in the mining industry, I can tell him that a special National Coal Board enterprise company has been set up. Should it not have sufficient resources, more will be provided.
Mr. Kinnock
I am talking about the unemployment that already exists, not just about what will happen when the Prime Minister's axe falls upon even more mining communities. Will she tell us how she can justify, in these conditions of very high unemployment, further cuts in her own programme of job creation, training schemes and regional aid? Is it not a fact that the Prime Minister's whole record is one of wiping out jobs and closing down communities?
The Prime Minister
We shall get extra jobs when ordinary people can create more enterprise, which produces goods and services that people will buy. That is the way in which it has been done in countries that have been successful. We should have a far greater chance of reducing unemployment if right hon. and hon. Gentlemen [column 775]ceased to support strikes and increased pay claims, regardless of the effect that this will have upon the jobs of others.
Mr. Kinnock
When—Mr. Speaker, this is the question that the whole country is asking—is this miracle going to come about? Will the Prime Minister answer that question?
The Prime Minister
It will come about when our people, instead of relying upon increased subsidies, do exactly what has happened in both Japan and the United States—set out themselves to create more small businesses.
Q5. Mr. Heddle
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 5 March.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Heddle
In the light of the role played by the Trades Union Congress in the mining dispute, does my right hon. Friend recognise that a considerable number of members of trade unions, the majority of whom are moderate and reasonable, now recognise that management has a duty to manage and that discussion invariably succeeds where disruption always fails? Is not this a welcome sea change from the attitude that prevailed 10 years ago?
The Prime Minister
Yes. As my hon. Friend knows, I saw the TUC in the closing days of the strike. It played a very helpful and constructive role. I agree with my hon. Friend that since we have got rid of a lot of regulations in industry as a whole, management has recovered both the right and the duty to manage. That is something upon which we can never compromise.
Mr. Buchan
Does the right hon. Lady recognise that at present management in Scotland is not managing but mismanaging? The disruption that exists in Scotland is caused by one woman, the Prime Minister, and one of her officials, Mr. Wheeler. Will the right hon. Lady kindly tell him to call off his nonsense? He declared that there would be no amnesty, even before the decision to return to work was taken.
The Prime Minister
I believe that the Opposition Front Bench agrees with me that it is right that there should be no amnesty for those who have committed serious criminal offences against miners and against the property [column 776]of miners and the NCB. The right hon. Gentleman Neil Kinnockthe Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) also agree with that proposition.
Q6. Mrs. Roe
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 5 March.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mrs. Roe
Is my right hon. Friend aware that, out of a total of 32 London boroughs, only seven councils supported the Labour GLC in its threat to approve an illegal budget on Thursday? Will she join the majority of Londoners in urging all Labour GLC councillors in their deliberations this afternoon on the estimates to adjust the GLC budget so that it does not exceed the limits set down by the Government?
The Prime Minister
I hope that the GLC, ILEA and all other relevant councils will make it their duty to set a legal rate, otherwise services will not be delivered and there will be chaos and confusion. Action can be taken to surcharge councillors and disqualify them. I hope that that will not happen.
Mr. Speaker
Application under Standing Order No. 10, Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody.
Mr. Crouch
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker
Order. Unless the point of order arises directly out of questions, I shall take it after the Standing Order No. 10 application.
Mr. Crouch
It arises out of questions. I wonder whether you have noticed, Mr. Speaker, that questions to the Prime Minister today were proceeding quite well notwithstanding the fact that some hon. Members referred to their notes and were called upon not do so. I do not consider that to be as much a sin as the Leader of the Opposition popping up and down so often to ask his questions. This is a Back Benchers' occasion. Do you not think, Mr. Speaker, that we should try to observe Prime Minister's Question Time as a Back Bench occasion?
Mr. Speaker
Order. The Chair has always given a certain licence to the Front Bench at Prime Minister's Question Time, but it remains true that every time the Front Bench gets up a Back Bencher cannot be called.