Interviewer
Prime Minister, in the communique here, Britain has rejected an implicit deadline of six months for President de Klerk to make moves towards irreversible reform in South Africa. What are you expecting to see now from President de Klerk in the coming months?
Prime Minister
Deadlines set by outside countries do not help at all—they irritate and they hold things back instead of letting them go forward.
It is not for me to say precisely how President de Klerk should do it. He obviously has to enter into negotiations with all of the people of South Africa on a new constitution. He is having, and will continue to have, talks about talks as to how those negotiations should be conducted and who will be there. That is really a kind of Eminent Persons Group concept—that you enter into negotiations and they are peaceful negotiations and therefore there has to be suspension of violence. So I think the concept has been accepted but precisely how it is implemented is of course up to him and his Government and people to consider. [end p1]
Interviewer
What has President de Klerk said to you about what he can deliver?
Prime Minister
I would not dream of revealing confidential discussions between Heads of Government or between Heads of Government and Heads of State. There would be no more confidential discussions if I did.
Interviewer
Has he given you an indication of what he thinks is possible?
Prime Minister
I do not reveal confidential talks and it is quite wrong for you to ask about them.
Interviewer
Would you expect that you could expect some kind of improvement within months or years?
Prime Minister
There has been considerable improvement recently, even since President de Klerk took over. As you know, Archbishop Tutu had a quite freely-held demonstration. As you know, some eight political [end p2] prisoners have been released. As you know, Mr. Sisulu is going to have a major ANC demonstration within a few days. These are tremendous improvements; they succeed other improvements which previously took place under President Botha.
Interviewer
Do you have any doubts in your mind that there will be reform in South Africa?
Prime Minister
None.
Interviewer
You are not expecting that you will have to move forward with some kind of stick of your own if they do not deliver?
Prime Minister
Sticks do not work. The reform process would not be going through now if all we had used were sticks. All that you would have is a destroyed South Africa and of course also destroyed Front-Line States because if the economy of South Africa collapsed so would the economy of the Front-Line States and that is the real reason why although they talk about sanctions, they have not put them on. [end p3]
Interviewer
Even the United States is setting a six-month deadline for President de Klerk to produce irreversible reform and signals of it. Are you prepared to do anything of that nature if Mr. de Klerk does not deliver on releasing Mandela?
Prime Minister
Certainly not. No Head of Government in that Commonwealth Conference or outside would accept a six-month deadline imposed upon them by others, they just would not, because they are in charge in their own country, they have indicated they wish to end apartheid, they disagree with it, they wish to end white domination, and they will have talks about how to get the negotiations going. If you try to impose deadlines, you will get a sharp reaction not in favour of the reform but against it.
The last time, when the United States went sharper with sanctions in 1987—Congress went sharper—the forward movement in South Africa was delayed and the extreme reactionaries increased their vote and it put back the cause which in fact they were seeking to support.
Interviewer
What do you believe the Commonwealth Action Programme which has now been adopted in the communique will achieve? [end p4]
Prime Minister
I do not think it will achieve very much. They talk about financial sanctions; that is a matter for the banks. It is quite wrong for Heads of Government to tell commercial banks what they must do with their depositors' money. They should remember the banks only have people's money. Quite wrong.
I do not think it will achieve anything. I think in my heart of hearts they know that there will be steady improvement in South Africa. They know that apartheid will go and I think they are trying to gain some credit for it but I do not think they are entitled to any credit for that.
Interviewer
Do you see the Conference and what it has achieved here producing anything at all in South Africa?
Prime Minister
No. I think that our approach has achieved a great deal more in South Africa because we have made our political views quite clear. We are totally against apartheid. They inherited nothing of apartheid from Britain when they became independent in 1910 or 1911 within a few years of the Boer War. Apartheid was imposed afterwards; it is utterly repugnant to us and we wish to see it go, but you will not have it go by destroying the economy of South Africa; you will not improve the lot of black South Africans by destroying the economy and by destroying growth. Ours is the [end p5] constructive way. We spend something like £10 million a year in helping black South Africans and I recently said at this Conference what it costs the Commonwealth in holding these many meetings of their groups we will spend not in joining those meeting in any way or in financing the administration of them—we will spend on directly helping more black South Africans.
Interviewer
Has agreement here and the communique here moved closer at all a visit by you to South Africa, say next year?
Prime Minister
No. That depends upon what happens in South Africa.
What the communique, at our instance, has accepted is that there should be some carrots as well as sticks. That is quite a move forward for the Commonwealth and it would not have come but for us and of course, we wholly agree, we proposed it.
Interviewer
What about a visit by you to South Africa?
Prime Minister
No, that would depend upon how things go. There is no point in going at the moment, it would give the wrong signals. [end p6]
Interviewer
Are you at all concerned that the ANC in particular have said that they think that what happened here in the last forty-eight hours has really done nothing to sell your position to the blacks of South Africa?
Prime Minister
They make certain that they do not sell my position but the fact is, which they ignore, that every public opinion poll conducted among black South Africans with the question: “If sanctions means unemployment, do you want them?” two out of three say no, they do not. That is the view of black South Africans and I do not accept that the ANC fully represents the view of black South Africans. There are the Zulus, there are the South African Swazis and there are many other black South Africans whose views I do not think are wholly represented by the ANC and I think it quite absurd to think that the ANC is the only spokesman for black South Africans.