Mark Brayne, BBC
Prime Minister, this is your first visit to Turkey as Prime Minister and I understand it is the first ever visit by a prime minister in office to Turkey.
Why this visit to Turkey and why how?
Prime Minister
Do you know, if I do not go to a place, I am asked why I have not been; when I do go, you always ask me why I am going!
The first thing is that I have been here over eight years - nearly nine years - and have not visited Turkey. Turkey is very important as far as NATO is concerned. When we held the Presidency of Europe, we worked very hard over Turkey's Association Agreement, because we did not feel they were getting as much out of it they should. She has now put an application in for the Community. [end p1]
Strategically, she stands at the junction of Europe and the East and, of course, she is making strenuous efforts to put her own economic house in order and is succeeding and it seems to me that all of those things are very good reasons for visiting Turkey and I also have a great admiration for Prime Minister Ozal and the work he is doing.
Mark Brayne, BBC
Turkey has indeed applied formally now to join the European Community, after twenty-five years of Associate Membership.
What assurances will you be able to give Mr. Ozal that he might get British support for that application?
Prime Minister
We cannot go any further until the Commission have in fact examined the application. You know, it does take quite a long time to do that. After all, when we applied to go in, the negotiations took ages. When Spain and Portugal applied to go in, they really were very long negotiations and we are just kind of absorbing Spain and Portugal and having to give very considerable help to Portugal because she is quite the poorest member, so it is going to take a time and I can only be absolutely frank about it.
When we have got the results of those considerations, we will look at it as a traditional friend of Turkey. [end p2]
Mark Brayne, BBC
There are some, it seems, who say that actually it is not really in the interests of the Twelve to have Turkey on board at all - it is very poor - and that perhaps in the longer term it would be better for Turkey to make the Association Agreement work better.
Do you share that scepticism about the value&dubellip;
Prime Minister
Turkey has certainly wanted the Association Agreement to work better, but there was a certain amount of opposition to that.
I think the problem with having Turkey in is that she is a much poorer country, but let us face it, there are some members of the Community who could pay more in net contributions than they do. Germany is the biggest net contributor; we, even after rebates, are the second biggest net contributor; and there are some countries in Europe which are quite prosperous but which tend to be net beneficiaries and Turkey is very important and she is very important strategically and these are matters we must take into account in considering whether she should join the European Community, and in doing that, then people will have to say: “Well, we will just have to lend a hand!” [end p3]
Mark Brayne, BBC
Trade is obviously going to be fairly high on your agenda of talks in Turkey, Prime Minister, and it is well known that when Britain failed to get the contract for the second Bosphorus bridge you were not very pleased about that. Britain is now bidding for a third Bosphorus bridge. Will you be pushing Britain's case?
Prime Minister
Oh yes! We always do!
No, I was not very pleased we did not get the second Bosphorus bridge. We are very good bridge-builders. For the Japanese, it was a kind of new venture into that kind of bridge building, and also, our tender was good but then, the Japanese have money all over the world and they just came in with an enormous aid package on things - roads and so on - going up to the bridge, which did not seem to me fair competition at all, and I made that perfectly clear to Japan.
I do not know whether we shall get the next Bosphorus bridge or not. We did get quite a bit of the work connected with the second Bosphorus bridge. I think we made it clear that we knew more about bridge-building than most other people who put in for that bridge and therefore I think it was our design and quite a lot of British steel.
We would like to have, obviously, the third Bosphorus bridge. [end p4]
Mark Brayne, BBC
What financial help might Britain be willing to give? I have heard figures of something like £30 million.
Prime Minister
What we usually do is to see that our help, as far as the actual contract is concerned, matches the help which anyone else may give, because otherwise it is just not fair competition.
What we cannot do is do what the Japanese do which is go and say: “If you let us have this contract, there will be all sorts of help with other things as well!” which we do not think is necessarily fair competition. After all, Japan expects other people's markets to be absolutely open to her goods, but in spite of all our efforts the Japanese market is not as open to ours and therefore, when she does what we consider not to be wholly fair in competing with us in third markets, we are pretty forthright about it.
Mark Brayne, BBC
The Japanese, it seems, are possibly in with Britain on this contract. Do you see the possibility of&dubellip;
Prime Minister
Sometimes - as in one of the dams in Sri Lanka - you tend to put together big consortia for this and sometimes that is an answer, particularly when we have most of the expertise. [end p5]
Mark Brayne, BBC
The question of human rights and democracy in Turkey, Prime Minister.
It is now nearly five years since Mr. Ozal came to power in Turkey and put an end to the three years of military rule after the coup of 1980.
Are you satisfied with Turkey's progress towards a greater respect for human rights and towards democracy?
Prime Minister
I know that there is considerable progress and I know that Mr. Ozal is making strenuous efforts to see that any infringement of human rights is put right so far as it is possible and to see that there are no infringements in the future.
Of course, we talk about these matters but equally, we must make it clear that things are enormously improved. Otherwise, you know, unless you say when you raise something: “Look! We know things are enormously improved!”; unless you thank them for coming in the right way, you do not get them continuing to come in the right way.
You have got to recognise when you have had a complaint the improvements that have been made and if there are still any difficulties, to encourage further improvements, but I know Mr. Ozal is very anxious to get on top of this complain and is doing everything he can to see that there are no infringements, and they have signed various international agreements, as you know. [end p6]
Mark Brayne, BBC
They have just signed the Convention on torture at the end of last year.
Prime Minister
Yes.
Mark Brayne, BBC
The ban on the activities of former Opposition leaders was lifted in November last year and I understand you will be receiving a call from the leader of one of the Opposition parties, Mr. Inonu.
Is this going to be a protocol occasion or a message of encouragement to the democratic process?
Prime Minister
When I travel abroad, I usually see a Leader of the Opposition. When I travelled abroad as Leader of the Opposition, I was always seen. If Mr. Kinnock travels abroad, he gets the full possible protocol treatment from our own embassies and they are always asked to give him every help to secure interviews with people in the sitting government, so it is just absolutely understood that it is part of the democratic process that in government you see leaders of the Opposition, and if by any chance any misfortune befalls you so that you become a Leader of the Opposition again, you also hope to see those in government. [end p7]
Mark Brayne, BBC
The question of Cyprus, I am sure, will come up during your talks with Mr. Ozal.
Mr. Ozal and the Greek Prime Minister, Mr. Papandreou have now met twice in the last few months. Are you satisfied with what appears to be a process of reconciliation between Greece and Turkey, two very important NATO members?
Prime Minister
I think it is good that these meetings have taken place and it is good that they intend to have more.
I think, when it comes to the question of Cyprus, it will have to be resolved by the two communities in Cyprus. Obviously both Turkey and Greece will have considerable influence and we also were a guarantor power and, after all, we gave them a very satisfactory constitution on independence which, had it been worked properly, we would not have had some of the problems that have arisen. But it will have to be between the two communities in Cyprus.
We are very anxious that Cyprus should continue to be a unitary state, even though it is a federal state, but you know, it is not going to be easy to find a solution; but the place to work is through the good offices of Mr. Perez de Cuellar and progress was being made and then, all of a sudden, it stopped. But you cannot get progress unless both the Greek Cypriot community and the Turkish Cypriot community want it and are prepared to negotiate quite [end p8] toughly, but have something which maybe is not perfect for either of them but is something that they can both live with and which is infinitely preferable to this situation which has gone on such a long time and which would relieve many many tensions if they could get agreement on a kind of federal state.
Mark Brayne, BBC
Will you be encouraging or suggesting to Mr. Ozal that he might make a gesture perhaps in reducing the number of troops in northern Cyprus?
Prime Minister
I am not going to do any direct negotiation. I cannot do that. That must be done by the Greek Cypriot community and the Turkish community and I think the best way to do it is still through the United Nations.
Mark Brayne, BBC
Do you see, perhaps, greater prospects for a reconciliation there after the election of Mr. Vassiliou as the President of the Republic of Cyprus? [end p9]
Prime Minister
I do not know. I have not seen Mr. Vassiliou.
This is the kind of situation in which generalities will not do. It is when you get down to the details and you watch and see whether they are prepared to make progress, and the usual thing is you deal with one group of factors and then say: “Well, if everything else is satisfactory we can agree to that!” and then you go on to the next group. Then, if everything else is satisfactory, you can add to that, and it is quite a long process.
That was the way it started with Mr. Perez de Cuellar and they got a first group and said: “Well! If everything else is satisfactory, we would agree on those terms!” but it somehow broke down.
So you can have very good general optimism expressed, but it is when you get down to the details that you begin to have some idea of whether you will get through or not, and I hope they will, because Cyprus has been almost de facto divided now far too long and both sides will have to give a little.