Announcer
Today, “Face The Press” goes behind the best-known front door in Britain. Our cameras are inside … . at a moment when the Government, and in particular the Prime Minister, are in the midst of a major crisis. Tomorrow, she will face the House of Commons.
Facing the press today is the Rt. Hon. Margaret Thatcher MP. With me, on this crucial week-end for the Prime Minister, are Karen De Young, London Bureau Chief of the “Washington Post” and James Naughtie, Chief Political Correspondent of the “Guardian”.
Prime Minister, let me ask you the question the whole nation wants the answer to: when did you know that Mr. Brittan had authorised the leak of the Solicitor General's letter to the Press Association?
Prime Minister
Miss Reynolds, you are asking me to give information on this programme which I must give to a Member of Parliament and also to the whole House. I have a whole load of questions in from Members of Parliament asking me full and precise details. I am replying to the House on Monday. I will reply to a lot of questions. I must give the replies to the House. [end p1]
James Naughtie
But Prime Minister, the reason the question has to be asked is that you made a full statement, as you put it, on Thursday, to the House. Clearly, it did not satisfy everyone. Not just the Opposition—many people on your own side were disturbed by it. Mr Brittan felt he had lost the confidence of his colleagues and he had to go.
Would it not make sense for your Government for you to answer the straight question now?
Prime Minister
But of course I will answer it. Of course. Any statement you make is usually the basis for further questions. That has happened throughout almost anything I have ever answered. But I really feel that I am answering the House on Monday. There are a whole lot of questions which have been put to me by Members of Parliament and I feel most strongly I am answerable to them and I really must give the House and Members of Parliament the dignity of answering them first.
Gillian Reynolds
Can I ask you, Prime Minister, why you did not answer that question on Thursday when you made your statement in the House?
Prime Minister
Well you know what I did say: that the majority of that Report was new to me when I read it. You are then asked a whole lot of things: precisely then when did you know? Miss [end p2] ago or a fortnight ago or so on? If you answer inaccurately, you will be accused of being misleading; so yes, you have to give a general answer, and then you will go back and find precisely … go back over the times and so on … and it is important to be precise. I cannot emphasise that too much. If I happen to give a wrong particular answer, “Oh!” they would say “You are being misleading!” I do not wish to be misleading, so therefore I answered generally. Now, a whole lot of questions have come in and I will answer them in detail. Of course I will.
Karen De Young
Prime Minister, let me see if I can ask the question perhaps in a different way. When you were interviewed by American correspondents on the 10th of January, which was four days after the leak of the letter, you gave a very precise answer that seemed to cover all the basics at that time. You said: “I have lived through this. I know every single document, every single phrase and every single nuance!” Do you feel now in retrospect that that perhaps was not necessarily an accurate statement, and do you think it is accurate now?
Prime Minister
The ones that are on our files I do. I have been through all the documents and I had when I did that. Of course, at [end p3] that time … I do not quite remember whether the Inquiry had been set up or not. I do not think … well, of course, I had not got the Report of the Inquiry, but everything on our files I know.
James Naughtie
But you see, Prime Minister, what puzzles people is the evident mystery, because here you were, for 16 days after the leak of a letter which was not a minor part of Government policy—it was a matter of acute public discussion and concern. Your Cabinet Secretary was conducting an inquiry. It subsequently emerges that your own Private Office in this building, your Press Office, had been in touch with the Press Office at the Department of Trade and Industry and the Private Office there, and with Mr. Brittan, and had set up the mechanism for this leak. And you tell us that there are many facts about this that you did not know until the night before you addressed the Commons last week.
Many people must find that very hard to believe.
Prime Minister
Truth is often stranger than fiction. You ask me these questions. Of course I will reply to them, but I must reply to them first to Members of Parliament and to the whole House of Commons. I will do my best to get precise answers to them. [end p4]
James Naughtie
Do you accept what Mr. Alex Fletcher, one of your back-benchers and a former Minister, said to on Thursday, that it is a question of the integrity of the Government that is at stake here? What we are actually talking about is whether the Government under your leadership has been frank with the House of Commons and the country.
Prime Minister
I was absolutely meticulous in the letter which I wrote to Sir John Cuckney. It was cleared everywhere. It was cleared word-for-word with the Solicitor General's office. We were here until quarter to eleven on New Year's Eve. That was the time it was cleared, because I was determined that it would not go out until it had been cleared. That is the sort of care we take. That is the sort of care I will take in the replies that I will give. They will be given, but I do not feel that I can give them here. They have to be given with meticulous accuracy.
Gillian Reynolds
But Mrs. Thatcher, let me just say … since you asked me, I do know what I was doing the other day. I was sitting listening to you at Prime Minister's Question Time and something came into my mind which is I am sure in the minds of lots of people: is this not a question of somewhat incompetent handling of information? I mean, I do not doubt your word for a minute that you are meticulous about it and [end p5] you were here till midnight on New Year's Eve.
Prime Minister
Quarter to eleven. Not midnight. Now why did you say that? Why did you say that? You got it wrong! You misheard. You misunderstood.
Look! Westlands is one thing that we deal with here. It has not been, would not normally be, an enormous question. All of this is against the background of a period when we did not have, in practice, collective Cabinet responsibility. You saw what Willie Whitelaw said in the House of Lords when he was answering the same questions as I was facing in the House of Commons: that he had never lived through that kind of period. Neither have I! It was the kind of period we hope never to live through again … when one member of a team is not quite working as a member of a team. We had to re-establish Cabinet collective responsibility at the first Cabinet meeting of the New Year, January 9th, after Christmas. I knew we had, and we had to re-establish it not merely as a theory, not merely as lip service, but to say: “Now look! Precisely what does it mean in practice?”
As you know, Michael Heseltine felt unable to agree with what it meant in practice and went. But we went through an extremely difficult period beforehand. I think you must keep that in mind.
And also, if I might say so, there are all kinds of other things going on. We have not just been sitting here dealing [end p6] with Westlands. As you know, we have been dealing with things like the Channel Tunnel, things like crime prevention, things like Green Papers on Taxation, things like the Roskill Report on Fraud in the City, things like the Popplewell Report; and all of the overseas visits as well as many many other things, so you are selecting one particular thing whereas we were dealing with a whole range.
Gillian Reynolds
… doing that because it appears to have got out of hand. It appears to have got out of your control.
Why is the Westland affair assuming this priority importance?
Prime Minister
Because, as I have tried to indicate, yes, there was a period when the Cabinet did not seem—and in fact was not acting with collective responsibility, because one person was not playing as a member of a team. The press were very critical of me in many ways before that. Some said that I should in fact have dealt with it and asked Mr. Heseltine to go earlier. I can only tell you that had I done that, Miss Reynolds, I know exactly what the press would have said. “There you are! Old Bossy Boots at it again and she is being anti-European!” So I did not.
Yes, if I had a fault, it was at that time that in spite of the acute difficulty we were going through—and may I make it clear, all of us will hope never to go through it again [end p7] and I think will see that we never go through it again—yes, one was a little bit tolerance because one was afraid of being accused of being anti-European; but on January 9th I knew we had to reassert that collective responsibility for the whole Cabinet and we did. You want to ask something Mr. Naughtie?
James Naughtie
Prime Minister, you mentioned the image of the Iron Lady which certainly is one that persists, but I think what a lot of people would say about your behaviour in the last two or three months is not that you have not asserted your authority from time to time—Mr. Heseltine says that you did it in a way which he did not like—but that perhaps you did it at the wrong moments, and that somehow you allowed your Government to get itself in a position where you have lost two Secretaries of State, your backbenchers are clearly alarmed, things appear to be unravelling in the way that we associated with, you know, Wilson Governments of the past. Somehow you have lost control.
How can you convince the nation that you have not?
Prime Minister
No! We reasserted collective responsibility on January 9th. As you know, when Mr. Heseltine decided that he could not agree to the practicalities of collective responsibilities … I put it in the House … he seemed to want [end p8] the advantages of it without its disciplines. We had to reassert its disciplines.
I am deeply sorry that Leon Brittan has decided to resign. He was a remarkable and outstanding Minister, and I am very sorry to be without him and I hope it will not be long before he returns to Government.
Karen De Young
Prime Minister, in Mr. Brittan's letter of resignation, he mentioned that he appeared to have lost the confidence of his colleagues. In your own letter regretting his resignation, you—in addition to regretting it—said you were reluctant to accept that resignation and that you thought that perhaps he had been treated unfairly.
If he was acting with your Office's authorisation in the question of the leaked letter, do you think he was being unfairly pressured by the Party?
Prime Minister
I have indicated that on the detail I will answer Members of Parliament first and the House, because that indeed is my duty, so please, there is no point in going on about the detail … you put one or two things in before you asked me the question. I want to make that clear.
I am deeply sorry that Leon went. He had not lost our confidence. He had not lost the confidence of the Party. I again ask you to look at the very very difficult period we [end p9] had been through, vividly described by Willie Whitelaw in the House of Lords. We will not go through it again, because if there were any suggestion then one would have to act much much more quickly.
It is quite something, and I can only say to you that had I said to Mr. Heseltine before: “Look! The policy of the Government is that Westlands shall decide! Therefore it is not possible to be so much on the side of the European solution when it is the policy of the Government that Westlands shall decide!” If I said: “All right, you must go!” you would have been the first to accuse me. You would have come down on me like a ton of bricks. Well you do already, but that of course is your prerogative and it is my problem, but now, can I just make it clear?
I put the whole of the Westlands thing in perspective in the speech in the House of Commons, going right back to the time when I said the Government, the whole Government, decided not to have a rescue operation for Westlands; therefore it had to seek a private sector solution. The whole Government was at one in that, and we went through the stages which have occurred. Now, I tried to give a very full statement last Thursday of this week. I have been asked further questions. I will answer them. I will try to answer them with the same accuracy we always try to do. Miss Reynolds, yes? [end p10]
Gillian Reynolds
Well, can I re-put Karen De Young's question and that is: do you think Mr. Brittan was unfairly pressured from the back-benches?
Prime Minister
I am deeply sorry Mr. Brittan has resigned. I think he was an outstanding Minister. I shall miss him very much. His breadth of experience was enormous. As you know, he spent a time in the Treasury, a very distinguished Chief Secretary. He was Home Secretary at a very very difficult time throughout the Coal Strike, when we had difficult questions of law and order at the pitheads; and then he took and mastered with a speed which perhaps only Leon could do, all the problems of DTI. Yes, we were under pressure, all of us. May I put it in perspective? Westlands is a small thing, and had it not been that we had one member of the team not playing as a team, this would never have arisen. It did arise and now I have to deal with it.
Gillian Reynolds
If you did not want Mr. Brittan to go, as you very generously just outlined, why did he go?
Prime Minister
Well that is a matter for him. That is a matter for him. I wanted him to stay. I wanted him to stay as when I had a previous resignation I wanted that person to stay too—that [end p11] was Lord Carrington, and I also wanted Leon to stay. He decided to go. He has been under enormous strain. He decided to go and I did say to him as I wrote in my letter: “I hope you will not be out for long!” He is a great asset to a Cabinet.
James Naughtie
It follows from that, Prime Minister, that you do not believe that his conduct was disreputable in any way on the question of the leak?
Prime Minister
I do never believe that there is anything disreputable about Mr. Brittan's conduct. Never!
James Naughtie
How serious was the mistake, which he clearly felt he had made and lost him the confidence. …
Prime Minister
I think you are going in to try to ask the questions which I cannot answer at the moment, in a different way. I will answer those questions. I will give the replies to Members who are asking me and I think, having asked me, are entitled to the first reply; and I am answering the House of Commons and I must respect that. Parliament means a great deal to me. It is the only reason why I am here. [end p12]
Gillian Reynolds
But the whole Westland thing, without going—as you quite rightly say—into that kind of detail, has changed the public's perception of you quite dramatically and quite suddenly. Does that bother you!
Prime Minister
Well I do not know from what it has changed to what it has changed. Has it changed? That actually I was, although I have been set up as an iron lady, and I have to have indeed … one has to have a touch of iron in one to make the decisions … what has it changed? Sometimes I have said, yes, I sometimes have to be very tolerant. So does anyone who accepts collective responsibility. The only question that arises here was did I act quickly enough in reasserting collective responsibility?
You will remember the things which happened over the Christmas Recess, when it seemed as if practically everything was happening in connection with the European bid. The first Cabinet meeting afterwards, one attempted to reassert it and did.
Gillian Reynolds
But you have always seemed, if I may just make this point one moment, to be in charge. I mean “Maggie's in charge!” is what the country has always thought. You also have a reputation for being the most interventionist prime minister since Lloyd George. People assume you have your hand [end p13] on the button, your finger on everything that is going on. What went wrong here?
Prime Minister
The question comes down to the one which I have already indicated. We had one member of a team …
Gillian Reynolds
Why didn't you tackle it sooner, Mrs. Thatcher?
Prime Minister
… one member of a team not playing as a team. That one member of the team was … had a tremendous ideal and wanted above all the European rescue package to win.
Gillian Reynolds
When did you realise he was not playing as a member of the team?
Prime Minister
Could I just answer the questions? Had I at that stage … we did, as you know, on 19th December, say: “It is a matter for Westlands!” and we asserted that and I announced that in the House. I announced that in the House and I think Michael was there on the front bench when I did it. That was restored apparently. But in practice, it was not, during the Christmas Recess. [end p14] Now, had I moved in before Cabinet again and said: “Mr. Heseltine, either in fact you play as a team or you go!” do you know what you would have accused me of? Being very anti-European and being peevish. Now, one moment …
Gillian Reynolds
But when did you realise he was not on the team?
Prime Minister
Please can I go on? We were coming up to a critical time, because the shareholders of Westlands had a meeting. It actually was moved, as events happened, but they had a meeting for the Tuesday after the Thursday Cabinet, and I said: “Whatever has happened until now, from this day forward we must be meticulous”, as meticulous as I had been in clearing every word of my letter which indeed was hailed by both sides, if I might say, as being on their side. That was the extent to which it was done, and we did then say: “It has to be not only in theory, but in practice!” and we did. And I can only say to you that had I moved before, you would have been the first to label me as “Bossy Boots”; you would have been the first to say: “She is anti-European!”
I hope I am neither. I hope I am reasonable. But when it came to it we had to reassert it and we did.
Karen De Young
Prime Minister, you have mentioned several times now the [end p15] threat of what the press would have said had you taken another action. I cannot believe that you are really nervous about what the press says about you. If that would be the case, Mr. Brittan would have resigned weeks ago.
Prime Minister
No. I am not nervous about what the press says. I do, in fact, do what I think to be right under all the circum … I try to do what I think to be right under all the circumstances.
Karen De Young
The day after Mr. Heseltine resigned, you said you did not want to answer any more questions about this matter and you considered it closed. Are you surprised that it is still going on? Do you think it is going to go on for a while?
Prime Minister
I seem to remember at that press conference that I was not in the business of recriminations and that I really wanted to get on with some of the other tremendous issues which indeed Government has to deal with, which are far far more important—some of them I have already indicated—far far more important.
James Naughtie
But here we are three weeks later, Prime Minister, and you are in the business of recriminations, because you are saying that it came about in fact because one man was not [end p16] playing as a team player.
Now, as you look back over this period, which has been a period of great anxiety and trouble for your government, do you think you have made any mistakes?
Prime Minister
I expect we all make mistakes. We are all human. I fully expect we all make mistakes, but look! Right now, you are concentrating on this one particular thing. I am trying to answer your questions as best I may, subject to the constraints upon me. You are choosing to concentrate! You are not looking at the economy! You are not looking at the North East! You are not looking at Law and Order! You are not looking at Foreign Affairs! You are not looking at Employment! You are not looking at Small Businesses! You are concentrating on it. It was this comparatively small thing which would never have assumed this proportion but for the fact that we had that thing, one member not playing as a member of a team.
James Naughtie
It was impossible, Prime Minister, on Thursday night, in my experience anyway …
Prime Minister
Thursday night … which …
James Naughtie
… the night after your statement in the Commons … [end p17]
Prime Minister
Which statement?
James Naughtie
… this past week. It was impossible, in my experience anyway, to find a Minister for the Government who wanted to talk about anything else and it was not that he felt or she felt that other matters were not important, but they felt the Westland affair was a crucial question of integrity for the Government and your leadership and moreover, that its outcome and the way you handled it, the extent of your frankness and so on, would determine in many ways how those other issues went, how people looked at the Government, and in that sense it is absolutely central.
I can imagine you as Leader of the Opposition in a situation if a Labour Government were in the position that your one is in now, it is a major problem, and as you look back, where do you think you put your foot wrong?
Prime Minister
You are asking me suddenly to make that decision and I could go back a good deal further, but there is not much point in doing that now. We made a decision. We made a decision at the Economic Committee of the Cabinet that there should be two choices and there should be time for the second choice to be worked up. We made that decision and we made that decision collectively. We stand by that decision. But we also made a decision that it is wholly … as the Government was not mounting any rescue package … it was wholly for the [end p18] shareholders of Westland to choose.
Now, that choice should have been made—I am never very good at dates, but it was the Tuesday after the Cabinet meeting on January 9th. They can decide when they have the meeting. It was moved to the following Friday, so that was another few days. Unfortunately, the choice was not clear cut and was not made, so it has gone on.
I must say I am very very sorry indeed for the people who work at Westlands because they must be very very worried as what their future is going to be, but the decision is as it was. The choice remains. The choice for Westlands, and I hope both for shareholders and above all for those people who work in it, that that choice will soon be made. But had the time-table happened as it was expected to happen, the choice would already have been made. Alas, it is still not decided, but that is for them, not for us.
James Naughtie
Would it have saved those shareholders and those workers, for whom you are obviously concerned, a lot of trouble if you had never got into this mess and had not tried to play the even-handed policy which fell apart in such a spectacular fashion?
Prime Minister
Well, there were two choices. It was Cabinet policy at that meeting that there should be two choices and if I might put it this way you know, I do not think the shareholders of [end p19] Westland were in any way perturbed by that, because for a time it had looked as if there were practically no future for Westlands when Government said in a collective decision—or certainly we all agreed—that there would be no rescue package. We agreed with the meetings of many many ministers. And then they were indeed very worried and as you know, there was one bid, which I referred to in that original speech, and that fell by the wayside because they withdrew the bid because they were very unhappy about the situation which the company was in and, as you know, it lost £98 million when the accounts came out. So I do not think that the shareholders of Westlands were at all perturbed that there were two possible rescue packages. Indeed, I think they were probably very pleased.
I think that some of them may be dismayed that the vote was not decisive, but that is a matter for them, not for us. I think some of the people who work at Westlands must be very very worried that they have got two rescue packages and no-one has been able to decide. But you see, once you say it is a matter for the company, then you do have to leave it for the company. They had two choices; I am sure they were pleased. I am sure they are now perturbed that the matter has not been resolved.
Gillian Reynolds
Prime Minister, as you rightly say, the Government faces other challenges at the moment. I mean, while all this has been bubbling up over the last fortnight, the pound has been falling [end p20] steadily and oil prices too. How is the Government's capacity to take decisive and influential action on all these affected by what has been going on in the Westland affair?
Prime Minister
Well … no, I do not think it is. No, I do not think it is affected. We carry on. I mean, that is the point. You are putting this right at the top of the agenda. For us it is not. We are carrying on with other things. Yes, of course, we answer debates on this; yes, of course, we answer questions. But yes, we do continue on the economy. Yes, we do continue with the White Paper on Social Services and its future. Yes, we have been working on the Green Paper on Rates. Yes, we are working on the Green Paper on the future of Personal Taxation. Yes, we were working on the Channel Tunnel. Yes, I went over to France and made an announcement on the Channel Tunnel. Yes, we were working on Crime Prevention. Yes, we are working on all of these other things, all of them. Yes, we are working on the economy. Yes, we look daily at interest rates and so on. Yes, we look with anxiety at unemployment, special anxiety, because during this period we have had one set of unemployment figures out. We have also had another set of employment figures out under which it seems that we have had 700,000 extra jobs during the last two years. We also look with anxiety at the coming unemployment figures, because the January unemployment figures are always bad because of the time of the year. And so to me, all of this has been going on in meetings, [end p21] in collective meetings, in groups of Ministers, and so on.
Gillian Reynolds
But a couple of the things you mentioned seem to me to show that as well as your appearance of being in charge, you have really rather lost your populist touch. The Channel Tunnel is one of the most unpopular things I can ever remember happening. It is another topic of conversation in the pubs beside Westland.
Prime Minister
Well you surprise me, because certainly on some of the polls that were done it seemed to us from the results that we had when we were looking at it and when we discussed it, that I think about three-quarters of the people—I am speaking from memory—really thought it rather a good idea to have a Channel Tunnel. But you see, Government is not financing this. It may be that we take a different political view. Government is not financing this.
What we have to do is to try to select a scheme between France and ourselves which is acceptable to both France and ourselves so that people can get on with the financing and with the building and how many times am I challenged: “Mrs. Thatcher, build more infrastructure!” What do you think this is? A Channel Tunnel is infrastructure. There will be something like £2.5 billion which is going into it. I hope that it will have a lot of work for us. I think it is something like 50,000 man-years. But you know, you ask for infra-structure. We have got a very good road system now, very good indeed. We put quite a lot of money [end p22] into it. I think it is good. You ask for infrastructure. We are going to have a Channel Tunnel. I believe, provided it can be financed from the private sector, I think that is good.
Karen De Young
Prime Minister, Sheikh Yamani, the Saudi Oil Minister, said the other day that he was not averse to allowing the oil price to slip to $15 or even lower if there is not some agreement reached on production.
It is has now fallen about 30%; or more since last month.
Mr. Lawson said last month to Parliament that he thought that a sudden fall in the oil price would be disastrous, both to the world economy and to Britain's economy, but that he considered that prospect both unlikely as well as being undesirable.
At what point does the threat to British economy appear and at what point does your Government have to take some kind of action or is there not such a point?
Prime Minister
I do not believe there is such a point. It is always at what point, is the question I am usually asked, and you select out one thing with total disregard to others. Let us just have a look!
No, some people would have said that the fall we have already in fact weathered would have been disastrous. It has not been. It is a question of supply and demand, as you know, [end p23] we still have—or are perceived to have—an oil element in our currency. But you know, the oil element is only 6%; of GDP is oil, only 6%;. It is much much smaller than people think. 8%; of our exports are oil-related and 8%; of our revenue, so it is quite absurd to look at Britain really as those economies which depend wholly on oil. So we have two points of view:
One as an exporter and as a producer. Obviously they do not wish the price of oil to fall too far, because it is quite expensive to get from the North Sea but, of course, it is still a good profit for them.
As a consumer, many people are pleased the price of oil is falling, because it helps on inflation, it helps the worldover and therefore it helps.
So you have got the two aspects. Some will help us and some will not, but we have weathered it. We are a well-run economy. I have always run a financial policy that is very prudent. Thank goodness I have!
Karen De Young
So there are no circumstances under which the Government plans on taking any action vis-a-vis production?
Prime Minister
We have a lot of investors in the North Sea. It really was part of the bargain of investment in the North Sea that they should be able to have their own level of production. One [end p24] does have powers to stipulate depletion rates, but I think those would only be used in very very rare circumstances.
James Naughtie
But politically, Prime Minister, what the economic happenings of the last few weeks mean is that Mr. Lawson's room for manoeuvre, as we all know—you best of all—is limited in his budget.
Now you have been in power for more than six years now. The whole philosophy to which you have adhered is low inflation and the delivery of tax cuts, real tax cuts, to people to free them to be more enterprising and so on. It is not going to happen, is it?
Prime Minister
Well, the tax cuts in income tax, if I might say so, have not been too bad! We have concentrated on raising the thresholds. The thresholds are much higher in real terms than they were when we came in. And we also know that if you are to get wealth created, you really cannot tax people, managerial, enterpreneurs, people who build up businesses, a lot more highly here than overseas. So we reduced the top rate to 60%;.
So if you look at what we have done, you know the expectations have been built up because already, although we have followed a very prudent financial policy, we have steadily tried to reduce the amount of direct taxation and [end p25] have done so … just one more thing … you know, we did also reduce not only income tax, but we reduced the National Insurance Surcharge on business. We wanted to help them to get down their costs. That is £3½ billion. Now, had we not done that, we would have had £3½ billion to put into the reduction of income tax, and I sometimes say to businessmen: “Look! We took £3½ billion off you as a company. If we had not, the standard rate of tax would not be 30 pence in the pound; it would be just about just over 26. Now do you think we were right?” At the time, I am sure we were right to get industrial costs down. So just remember that as well!
James Naughtie
Indeed! But we are back, Prime Minister, to the question of credibility, because the point we are increasingly getting to in domestic politics is whether people believe, as they come to the point where they must make a judgment on you at the end of your second term, whether they believe that it is going to work. They look round the country; they see, by your own Government's figures, that more people are slipping below the poverty line. They know that many people are going to be losers, as you put it, out of the Social Security review. Some people are going to be losers out of rates. They see three, nearly four million people out of work. They see interest rates slipping up. Where is the light at the end of the tunnel? Why should they believe that suddenly a blinding flash of enterprise is going to rescue them? Because to many [end p26] people, particularly in the North and in Scotland and so on, it is not happening?
Prime Minister
Well, let me tell you, not about the light at the end of the tunnel, but the point where we are now.
We have record all-time production, taking both manufacturing and services as a whole, gross national product—an all-time high. We have record investment. You have been asking that for a very very long time. We have record home ownership. We have a record what is called real personal disposable income, taking even unemployment into account. That is not bad. We have in fact tackled problems that have been left lying about to be tackled for years. Yes, we tackled the problem of trade union bosses over their members by giving more power to their members. All of these things we have tackled.
We are trying to tackle a property-owning democracy. I believe in people being more independent. Therefore, I want them to own their own houses. Therefore I want them to be as used to owning shares, some in their own companies, some in others, as used to owning their own shares as they are to owning their own cars. We are getting that. More shareholders.
We have stood by our pledges to the Social Services. We have more doctors and nurses in the Health Service that any previous government. There are more patients being treated than any previous government. [end p27]
We have stood by our pledges to the pensioners.
And so you will come and say to me about unemployment.
Yes. No-one wants it solved more than I do. It is, as it were, the last problem. How do you solve it? By creating more jobs. By creating more wealth. Ministers and Civil Servants cannot pour out of Whitehall and set up a hundred businesses in every town. They would not know how to. That is why we have to have regional policies. We do.
In the North-East, your Tyne-Tees, there are more self-employed people now, and we are doing everything we can to try to help other businesses to go there.
Yes, but what other way of wealth creation, of job creation, is there than the way we are going? Trying to keep down inflation, trying to keep down costs, trying to keep down Government regulation. We are doing that and unless the policy of wealth creation succeeds, and job creation—and do not forget I indicated it is—there is no other country in Europe that has created 700,000 jobs in the last two years—not one other! And what you say in the Report just recently which I … let me give the good news … it was in I think David Lomax, National Westminster … Britain has joined the big league of successful countries on output, on low inflation and on good balance of trade … that is not bad!
Karen De Young
David Lomax also said in that same Report that there are some indications that would make it appear that Britain has the ruddy glow of health, but the rose on its [end p28] cheek is more indicative of a long-term fever.
Prime Minister
But you have never said … you have not even given the good news which I have given you now … so one moment … one moment …
Gillian Reynolds
… I wonder if we are living in the same world here …
Prime Minister
Please may I just complete? What I have said is I have given you the good news and what do you say? It is not good news. I am sorry.
James Naughtie
No-one is saying that it is not good news, Mrs. Thatcher. Of course it is some good news.
Gillian Reynolds
But we are also wanting to point out to you that there are a record number of mortgage defaulters and that possibly, by the end of next week, my mortgage, his mortgage, her mortgage, will all be higher.
Prime Minister
But there are far many more people owning their own homes now than there were when we came in. Far many more! [end p29]
Gillian Reynolds
And far more people defaulting on their mortgages as they got higher.
Prime Minister
That is a tiny proportion and, indeed, there are far many more houses. There are over a million more houses or flats than there were when we came in.
So whichever way you turn, apart from the unemployment, and yes, we have had to deal with restrictive practices; we have had to deal with trying to turn trade union power back to the members instead of the bosses. Other people in Europe … Europe has an unemployment problem. They too have an unemployment problem. We are doing better at creating jobs than any of them.
Gillian Reynolds
I want to bring you to something a little more personal and that is, I was looking in the “Daily Mail” the other day and saw a picture of Mr. Thatcher walking along and saying, with his golf clubs and saying he could not really fancy the thought of another five years.
I have just heard … you have been so enthusiastic about your performance, do you think you could fancy another term in office?
Prime Minister
Yes, oh yes. Yes, I do want more taxation down. I do want production to go up, as it has now gone up to all-time records [end p30] and further on. I do want to get the spirit of enterprise back, which built Britain. It is happening. I do want to get more home ownership. I do want to get more share ownership. I do want to get more independence. All of this is part of my belief. It is happening.
The only way to solve the unemployment problem is by the way we are going, keeping inflation down. If you do not, how can you compete with Germany?
Yes, by living within a budget. Yes, by always having prudent finance. Families have to do it, businesses have to do it, people must expect me to do it.
Yes, my husband, Denis, will be absolutely the most marvellous support. I cannot say enough of thanks to him or to my family—they are marvellous and one could not, I think, get through the difficult times without them.
James Naughtie
Prime Minister, you spoke not long ago, in another interview, about your knowledge inside yourself that you would know when it was time to go. Do you think the events of the last couple of months have ever struck you as a signal that perhaps that moment might come a bit sooner than you had expected?
Prime Minister
No. I think I will know when it is time to go. I do not think that time has come. I would like to go on to a third term. [end p31] I believe we can do so. I believe we shall do so.
James Naughtie
When you go to the country to ask for that mandate, will you will be able to produce an unemployment figure which is lower than the one we have got now?
Prime Minister
I do not know. I do not know of any prime minister or minister of employment who has ever forecast. What I can do is say that 700,000 new jobs according to the figures have been created in the last two years and had you been interviewing me two years ago and I had said to you: “I think 700,000 new jobs will have been created by the beginning of 1986” you would not have believed me … I would not have said it.
I think we have got the policies right for the creation of the enterprise spirit if it is still there. I believe it is still there. It is happening. There are more businesses now than there were when I came in. I think about 140,000 more.
James Naughtie
But if I had been interviewing you in 1979, Prime Minister, or I dare say in 1983, at your second General Election, and said to you there will be nearly 4 million unemployed as you move towards the end of your second term, you would have accused me of gross exaggeration and alarmist talk. [end p32]
Prime Minister
Where do you get the figure of nearly 4 million from? You know it is not correct, Mr. Naughtie. You know what the figure is. It is of the order of three and a quarter million. Yes, this month will be bad. This month will be a bad month. The winter month always is, but why do you say 4 million, nearly 4 million, when you know it is three and a quarter?
James Naughtie
Well, there are different ways of interpreting the figures.
Gillian Reynolds
Well, before we get … . on that …
Prime Minister
No, there are not different ways of interpreting the figures. There are official figures. We do not make them. They are made professionally. Yes, we do give a lot of training for young people. I believe in it. I would far rather they had two years training than having nothing to do. That is most debilitating for them. Yes, we do have a Community Programme for people who have been unemployed for either six months in some cases or a year, to get them back into the habit and accustomed to work, to give them back self-respect. Yes, we do do those things and it is right, but those people are employed or being trained. They are not unemployed. [end p33]
Gillian Reynolds
Prime Minister, can I ask you as a final question and it must be a short question and a short answer, what do you say to those people who look at the spectacle of the last two weeks and say: “This is a totally incompetent Government!”
Prime Minister
Cabinet responsibility has been restored. It is not an incompetent government. A government which has the kind of economic record now on performance that we have, the staunchness of law and order, the high regard overseas which has sorted out some of the problems, including the trade union one, from which every other government has flinched, is not incompetent. It is courageous!
Gillian Reynolds
Mrs. Thatcher, thank you for facing the press today!
Prime Minister
Thank you.