PRIME MINISTER
European Community Budget
Q1. Mr. Marlow
asked the Prime Minister if she will give a progress report on the negotiations concerning the net United Kingdom contribution to the European Community budget.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
The March European Council agreed that the Commission would now make specific proposals on a lasting solution to the budget problem, and the Council of Foreign Ministers will report its conclusions to the June European Council. The Foreign Ministers are also committed to reporting conclusions on an interim solution, and it is agreed that provision for refunds for the 1983 budget year will be incorporated in the draft budget for 1984.
Mr. Marlow
Since European moneys are spent less prudently and with less control than moneys spent by Her Majesty's Government, and since my right hon. Friend is committed to the overall reduction of public expenditure, will she confirm to a grateful House that on no account will her Government permit any increase in European own resources?
The Prime Minister
I assume that my hon. Friend refers to the 1 per cent. VAT ceiling. I am on record as saying clearly that that should not be exceeded, as is the Federal Republic of Germany. Own resources in general are quite sufficient and will continue to be so for many years, provided that the common agricultural policy is brought under proper control and a smaller proportion of the budget is spent on it than at present.
Mr. Hooley
Is the Prime Minister aware that she has been talking about a lasting solution for the past two years? Will she have the courage to admit that there is no such thing as a lasting solution because fellow states in the EC do not want it and have no intention of granting it?
The Prime Minister
It was thought that the 1 per cent. VAT ceiling would be reached before it has been and that that would give an opportunity fundamentally to revise the structure of the European budget. It was not reached, but many more countries are now searching for a lasting solution because they can see that if agricultural expenditure continues as it is there will not be sufficient resources. That gives an opportunity for fundamental reform that was not there previously.
[column 663]Engagements
Q2. Mr. Proctor
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 12 April.
The Prime Minister
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be having further meetings later today. This evening I hope to attend a dinner given by Her Majesty the Queen at Windsor.
Mr. Proctor
Is my right hon. Friend aware that Basildon district council has increased the rate demand by 20 per cent.—more than four times the rate of inflation—has spent £3,000 of ratepayers' money on declaring Basildon a nuclear-free zone, and has made a £1,000 political contribution to the Billericay and Basildon branches of the CND, so placing in jeopardy jobs, defence and genuine services in my constituency? During my right hon. Friend's busy day, will she send a message to my constituents—ratepayers and voters—telling them to vote Conservative in the local elections in May?
The Prime Minister
I agree with my hon. Friend that most people want local authorities to give good value for money and to provide genuine local services, and that they do not want empty political gestures. I also agree that high increases in rates can jeopardise the future of small businesses and jobs. As to what he said about questionable expenditure, I remind him that the local auditors have the power to inquire into the expenditure of local councils. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend's latter point.
Mr. Foot
Will the Prime Minister confirm, or deny, the report that she is proposing to appoint a Minister for the west midlands? Is this appointment belated recognition of the loss of 300,000 jobs in the past three years, which is one quarter of the total jobs available?
The Prime Minister
What has happened was announced in the House by my right hon. Friend Patrick Jenkinthe Secretary of State for Industry during the Budget debate. The work on the west midlands, which is not an area for which regional policy benefits are obtainable, has been allocated within the Department of Industry to the Under-Secretary.
Mr. Foot
What about the 300,000 jobs? Are not these figures included in the NEDO report that was discussed at the meeting yesterday, at which some Government Ministers apparently proposed that the report should be suppressed? Will the right hon. Lady tell, the House whether she agrees or disagrees with the reports suggestion that there will be no increase in jobs in this decade, and will she tell us the reason for the suggested suppression?
The Prime Minister
I understand that my right hon. Friends who attended NEDO argued very strictly about the report, and so did the CBI. The CBI can see some improvement in the prospects for the future. It realises that there are new jobs coming from the new industries and it is very much aware that there is little future for anyone in this country if money is poured into protecting yesterday's jobs rather than helping to support new ones.
Mr. Foot
Was that indicated in the NEDO report?
The Prime Minister
The NEDO report was a matter for NEDO. It has not yet been fully published. Has the right hon. Gentleman read the report?
[column 664]Q3. Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 12 April.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Carlisle
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the zest and commitment of the employees of the National Freight Corporation show what can be achieved when an enterprise is freed from state control and when employees are given a stake in the business in which they work? Does not this success emphasise the folly of the Labour party's recent promise to nationalise huge chunks of industry?
The Prime Minister
I agree that the consortium has had an extremely successful start. It has made higher profits than during its last year of state ownership, and for the first time the people who work in that business have the right to a stake in it and own it themselves. That is a far better way to proceed than to make those industries state-owned. The way in which the Government are proceeding, of returning state-owned industries to the people who work in them and to the private sector, offers much better prospects for the future.
Mr. Roy Jenkins
Will the Prime Minister tell the House why Mr. Geoffrey Chandler, the director general, was given such a rough time at NEDO in presenting an objective report? is he to be made the Campbell Adamson of the next election?
The Prime Minister
Mr. Campbell Adamson was the director general of the CBI. On this occasion the CBI was supporting the view taken by the Government. Obviously there is no similarity between the two.
Mr. Dormand
Will the Prime Minister tell the House what the essential difference is between the upturn in the economy that is being forecast by the Government and the three previous similar forecasts that did not materialise?
The Prime Minister
One of the differences is that we appear to be getting an upturn in several countries simultaneously, which was not the case before. Britain's first upturn towards the end of 1981–82 occurred at the same time as the worst of the recession was hitting Germany. There are signs of a similar upturn in the United States, Britain and Germany. We do not believe that the upturns are merely a recovery from the rundown of stock.
Q5. Mr. Greenway
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 12 April.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Greenway
Has my right hon. Friend noted the oft-repeated remark, and indeed aspersion, of the Leader of the Opposition, to the effect that the Government are spending more on defence than on education? In a highly dangerous world, are not the Government right to give the highest priority to defence, and would not all our social services, including education, be at risk if that were not done?
The Prime Minister
Yes, I totally agree with my hon. Friend. Our way of life is worth defending. We have to spend sufficient money on defence, both individually and as part of NATO, to ensure that it is not imperilled. Were we not to do so, all of our social services, housing and [column 665]everything else would be imperilled as, I believe, was once pointed out by the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey).
Q6. Mr. Thomas Cox
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 12 April.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Cox
Is the Prime Minister aware that a prospective Conservative parliamentary candidate has not been approved because, apparently, his wife has expressed opposition to fox hunting? Does the Prime Minister approve of that decision, and, if so, why? If she does not approve of that decision, will she condemn this deplorable action by a party that is always talking about the personal freedom of the individual?
The Prime Minister
I answer for many things from this Dispatch Box, but not for the selection of Conservative candidates. Local parties choose for themselves.
Q7. Mr. Adley
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 12 April.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Adley
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Kremlin has lavished praise on the Labour party's new campaign document? Is my right hon Friend surprised about that and will she comment on it?
The Prime Minister
I have not read the sentences to which my hon. Friend has referred. If one reads the document, there is not the slightest shadow of doubt that the Kremlin would lavish praise upon it, because it would severely weaken the defences of this country and NATO.
Mr. Meacher
Is the Prime Minister aware that the latest official figures show that there are now 7 million people living in supplementary benefit poverty in this country and that that is an increase of no less than 60 per cent. since she came to power? Are we not seeing the ugly face of Thatcherite Britain, in which the rich have massive tax handouts showered upon them at the same time as one in eight of the population are reduced to means-tested poverty?
The Prime Minister
The numbers of people on supplementary benefit have increased largely due to the increased number of unemployed. They are able to get—I am sure the hon. Gentleman thinks this is right—sufficient for their needs. That has been the policy under all Governments, including the Labour Government.
Sir Anthony Grant
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the police in this country are held in much higher public esteem than some Left-wing cranks would have us believe? Will she confirm that if, in certain circumstances, [column 666]the police consider it necessary to use weapons to combat armed crime, they will have the wholehearted backing of the Government in so doing?
The Prime Minister
We rely on the police as the first arm of the law to enforce order in this country and to bring people before the courts. Sometimes they have an extremely dangerous job to do. When they are likely to have to deal with people who are armed, under those circumstances and in accordance with the guidelines of the Home Office, they can go out armed. I believe that the overwhelming majority of people in this country support that action.
Mr. Grimond
Will the Prime Minister find time today to order an inquiry into the price of petrol in this country? It cannot be in accordance with market economics, which her Government follow, that when the price of oil goes down the petrol companies propose to increase the price of petrol?
Mr. Skinner
That is sharper than Jenkins.
The Prime Minister
It remains to be seen whether the alleged increases will stick. I doubt whether they will, but of course the petrol companies have one problem—the changing value of the pound in relation to the dollar. Although the price of petrol can fall in terms of dollars, it can increase in terms of pounds because of the change in the value.
Value for Money Audits
Q8. Mr. Eggar
asked the Prime Minister whether she will extend the role of value for money audits within the public sector.
The Prime Minister
My right hon. and learned Friend Leon Brittanthe Chief Secretary to the Treasury has tabled new clauses to the Parliamentary Control of Expenditure (Reform) Bill, which provide for value for money audits in nationalised industries.
Mr. Eggar
Given the massive subsidy from the taxpayer to the nationalised industries, is it not right that both the Government and the country should be certain that the maximum care is being taken about the way in which that money is spent? Is it not vital that the House should ensure that the financial auditors of the nationalised industries are able to carry out value for money audits?
The Prime Minister
It is important that value for money audits should be carried out. It is probably better that they should be carried out by the nationalised industries' own auditors, who are very well equipped to do them. It would not help anyone—and least of all the overheads—if those industries were subject to several different audits by several different people. I believe that the amendments that have been tabled will meet my hon. Friend's concern and that of most right hon. and hon. Members.