PRIME MINISTER
Engagements
Q1. Mr. Lofthouse
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 8 February.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, including one with Prince Sadruddin Aga Khan. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be having further meetings later today, including one with the Prime Minister of Nepal. This evening I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty the Queen.
Mr. Lofthouse
Will the Prime Minister inform the House whether Mr. Ian MacGregor has been offered, formally or informally, the chairmanship of the National Coal Board, and if not, is she about to do so? Is the right hon. Lady aware that if that is the case—[Interruption.] Some Tory Members may think it funny, but the miners do not—many responsible sections of the mining industry will feel that this appointment is based on political dogma and that Mr. MacGregor will be given a licence to butcher the manpower of the mining industry as he has done with that of the steel industry? If this is the case, is she aware—[Hon. Members: “Too long” ]—that there will be unity in the mining industry, the like of which she has never seen before? The miners know full well how to deal with callous and stubborn women.
The Prime Minister
As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, Mr. Siddall 's present term as chairman of the NCB ends on 3 July. He is doing a wonderful job, but the Government have always been aware that he wished to serve for only a limited period. I am not yet in a position to make any announcement about Mr. Siddall's successor or about Mr. MacGregor's future when his current term ends in June. The present chairmen of both the NCB and the British Steel Corporation are both very able and are both doing a superb job.
[column 874]Mr. Luce
In view of the widespread desire for progress on multilateral disarmament, will my right hon. Friend discuss with Vice-President Bush this week the prospect in Geneva in the next few months of picking up the Soviet disarmament proposals by the scruff of the neck, examining them ruthlessly to test their credibility and thus establishing whether any genuine progress can be made?
The Prime Minister
As my hon. Friend points out, I shall be discussing these matters with Vice-President Bush, I hope tomorrow. We shall be discussing the proposals that are on the table and available for the Soviet Union to pick up if it wishes. We both feel that the way is open for genuine disarmament and that the only thing stopping it is the refusal of the Soviet Union to agree to negotiate genuinely towards the zero option.
Mr. Foot
On the right hon. Lady's latter answer, we shall be happy to have a debate on that subject as soon as the Government are prepared to arrange it.
On her first answer, is the right hon. Lady really trying to tell the House and the country that Mr. Ian MacGregor's rule over the coal industry—[Hon. Members: “Steel” ]—has been a success story? Does she regard it as successful for the steel industry that the number of people employed in it should be cut in half, that the amount of steel we produce should be almost cut by half and that we should have the fastest shrinking steel industry in the world? Is she proud of that?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman will know, or should know, that there is vast overproduction of steel and overcapacity the world over. The world's capacity to produce steel is about 1,000 million tonnes and present consumption is only about 700 million tonnes. I believe that Mr. MacGregor has done a superb job in streamlining our industry and in securing a reasonable proportion of the world's trade and of our home market.
Mr. Foot
Why does the right hon. Lady not take the trouble to compare what has happened in the steel industry in this country with what has happened in other countries? When she took office in May 1979 Britain was the seventh largest steel producer in the world. We have now sunk to fifteenth place, producing less steel than is produced in Poland. Is that what she calls a superb job?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman has neglected to say that our steel industry was both overmanned and overpriced. He has also neglected to mention that the Government of whom he was a member had to close down the Ebbw Vale steelworks. That Government ducked many of the difficult decisions that we eventually had to take. The closure of some of our steel plants and the reduction in the number of jobs came later than in some other countries in Europe. I believe that on the whole Mr. MacGregor has done a superlative job and that that is widely recognised.
Mr. Foot
Can the right hon. Lady name any country in the world where steel production is declining faster than in Britain?
The Prime Minister
Can the right hon. Gentleman quote any steel industry in the world that was more overmanned than the one that we took over?
Mr. Neil Thorne
I am delighted to hear that my right hon. Friend is entertaining the Prime Minister of Nepal. [column 875]Is she aware that this is the first occasion on which a serving Prime Minister of Nepal has visited Britain since 1907? At her meeting with him will she express the gratitude of the British people for everything that the Nepalese have done for us through the Ghurkas in the two world wars and in the South Atlantic last year? Does she have any plans to visit Nepal?
The Prime Minister
I shall convey my hon. Friend's message to the Prime Minister of Nepal. I believe that the Ghurkas command universal admiration and we shall continue the traditional friendship between Nepal and Britain.
Q2. Mr. Cryer
asked the Prime Minister if she will state her official engagements for 8 February.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Cryer
Does the Prime Minister accept that it is an act of gross political cowardice for the Secretary of State for Defence to refuse to debate the nuclear issue with the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament? Does she accept that the same moral bankruptcy is demonstrated by her Government, who are now spending more on defence than on education, bleeding the National Health Service dry to pay £10 million for Trident, and turning Britain into a floating United States nuclear weapons carrier? Why does the right hon. Lady not support the United Nations nuclear non-proliferation treaty? Why does she not try to stop spending money on nuclear weapons, instead of spending more and more on them as each year goes by?
The Prime Minister
I do not accept anything that the hon. Gentleman says about my right hon. Friend Michael Heseltine the Secretary of State for Defence. Nor do I think that the House as a whole will accept his remarks.
Mr. Skinner
The right hon. Lady knows that she does not like the right hon. Gentleman.
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend has already replied to the CND in his letter and has pointed out that the CND has gone back on absolutely everything that used to be Labour party policy—that we all supported NATO—[Hon. Members: “Still do” .] At least the Labour party used to until now. The CND does not, but most of the Labour party supports NATO. I rather understood that at the most recent Labour party conference the party had not yet decided upon its defence policy and so it has something silly like unilateralism and multilateralism going hand in hand. The CND does not support NATO and it has gone back on Labour party policy, when for years and years there has been a nuclear deterrent. It is one that has served Britain well for 37 years. Most of us still believe in both NATO and a nuclear deterrent. That is our policy. The place to debate nuclear matters is in this House. This Government are one of the few Governments who have provided time for nuclear debates.
Mr. David Steel
Has the Prime Minister received reports of the prospective loss of 500 jobs from the computer typesetting firm that is planning to move all its machinery to Germany, from where, no doubt, we shall import its products? As her industrial strategy is designed to support information technology, what will she do about this?
The Prime Minister
We have to win these contracts by our performance and by production in this country, and [column 876]the right hon. Gentleman should be the first to know and understand that. He should be very much aware that the grants that are available in the special development areas can rival those anywhere in Europe. Beyond that, we have to perform through the management and the work force, and by design.
Q3. Mr. Proctor
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 8 February.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Proctor
Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the Government have a continuing commitment to reducing the level of inflation, throughout the remainder of this Parliament and in the ensuing two Conservative Governments for the next 10 years?
The Prime Minister
I confirm that it is in the forefront of Government policy to continue to reduce the level of inflation. There is a good way to go yet. We must remember that some of our main industrial competitors—Germany, Japan and the United States—have lower levels of inflation. If we are to compete with them, we must get our level of inflation down to theirs and below.
Q4. Mr. Dubs
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 8 February.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Dubs
Is the Prime Minister aware that since the House threw out the immigration rules a few weeks ago many people have been appalled at the squalid bargaining that has been going on within the Conservative party to buy the votes of the racist Members on her Back Benches? Is it not about time that she and her Government put to the forefront the needs of those who will be affected by the immigration rules rather than merely going for a cheap barter for their votes?
The Prime Minister
I understand that new immigration rules will be tabled shortly. The Government have to consider fairness to all sides—[Interruption.] That might be a strange policy to the Labour party, but it is not a strange one for us. The Government remain committed to strict immigration control and immigration policy will be subject to continuous re-examination in the light of changing circumstances, in order to achieve that objective.
Mr. David Atkinson
Does my right hon. Friend agree that any contribution that the taxpayer may be asked to make to ensure that the British public are more aware of the need to defend their freedoms must be seen against the massive support by the Kremlin for the World Peace Council, which has the aim of undermining the defence of our freedoms?
The Prime Minister
I hope that we shall all robustly put our case to defend those freedoms and not rely on anyone else to put it. Each and every one of us should put it. I am afraid that there are many places in Britain where they are taken too much for granted, and that in itself can be very dangerous. We have to spend sufficient on defence and on putting our case to convince people of the need to defend our way of life and safeguard our children's future.
Mrs. Shirley Williams
Is the Prime Minister aware that in a reply to a question from my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Liberal party on 3 February she told the [column 877]House that the increase in unemployment between May 1979 and December 1982 had been 135 per cent. and that the Minister of State, in answer to a question from me on 14 December 1982, said that the increase in unemployment between May 1979 and October 1982 was 154 per cent? Will the right hon. Lady and her Government cease to play games with the figures and address themselves to the issue of how to reduce unemployment?
The Prime Minister
The figures that were used, and which I have here, were in each case national figures. They were not OECD figures, but national figures, published on a national, seasonally adjusted basis. The increase in the United Kingdom from May 1979 to December 1982 was 135 per cent. We have the January figures, but no one else has. I gave increases in the national figures for the Netherlands, Germany and the United Kingdom, on a seasonally adjusted basis.
[column 878]Mr. Woodall
If the Prime Minister is really serious in suggesting that Mr. MacGregor has done a superb job in cutting the British steel industry in half because of overproduction, do you not agree, Mr. Speaker, that the Prime Minister had better think twice before she attempts to do anything similar with the coal industry? Otherwise, she will have an industrial revolution on her hands, the like of which this country has never seen before.
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman neglects to take into account the state of the world steel industry. We have to compete for jobs at home and if we are more efficient in our steel industry we shall have a jolly sight better record on exports than we have yet managed to achieve. We have only 4 per cent. of the world's exports of steel. There is something to go for, and it will be obtained in this country only by supreme efficiency and not by shouting at a very efficient chairman.