Pete Murray
My guest in this part of the programme is the Prime Minister of Great Britain, The Right Honourable Margaret Thatcher. And that's the last time I'm going to mention the word Prime Minister on the programme because this is strictly [?not] a political interview because I want to talk to you—Mrs. T., if I may call you—about you as a person rather than as a politician. Firstly, may I wish you a very good evening and welcome to the programme.
PM
I'm very much looking forward to it and thank you for calling me by my name. You know, I well remember when I was first a Cabinet Minister which is quite a long time ago, I went to the Department and I noticed they would always call me Secretary of State, and I said no you must call me Mrs. Thatcher, at least then I know you know my name.
Pete Murray
Now I'm sure quite a number of people think you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, but I don't think that was really the case was it? I mean you … .
PM
No, I didn't see many silver spoons in my childhood. But I really had the most marvellous background and upbringing—the most marvellous anyone can ever have. We have a wonderful family. My parents thought mostly what could they do for us. I have one sister—Muriel RobertsMuriel—she was older than I was, and really their whole life was devoted to seeing that we had a better chance than they did. But they taught us all the right things. You know you were taught to be responsible, to be truthful, to support the police, to live within your income, to be a good citizen and to do things for other people. Just the way everyone should. And those standards have stayed with me all my life, and so really in a way I had the richest upbringing possible. Not rich in money, we hadn't very much money, but rich in the right values. And perhaps that's something else I should mention. I was brought up—we lived over the shop, Alfred Robertsmy father was a grocer, and it's marvellous for meeting people. You know you'd run into the shop and you'd know there would always be people there. In those days we stayed open quite late. It would be seven or eight o'clock on Friday night and nine o'clock on Saturday night and people would come in for a chat as well [end p1] as to get things and I got used just to talking to anyone. And that too has been useful all my life.
Pete Murray
You are known as a workaholic, and I think that probably also stems from your parents doesn't it, I think they worked very hard?
PM
Oh yes. Work was just part of our life. First we had to but second we enjoyed it. And we were brought up to like work.
Pete Murray
Were the surroundings you lived in particularly glamorous?
PM
Oh no, no, there was nothing glamorous. In our town, just let me tell you, I only knew one person who actually had a refrigerator—such things were unknown. It was years and years later that we actually had a vacuum cleaner, and in my childhood we did it by dustpan and brush. We hadn't a great deal, but what we had was absolutely scrupulously clean—but there were no mod cons, we didn't live in luxury.
Pete Murray
What about bathrooms?
PM
No we didn't have one I'm afraid—well we had an artificial one as it were, you know one that we made up.
Pete Murray
What, a tin bath do you mean?
PM
Yes, we had a very, very large zinc bath and we had to heat the water to pour into it, and we did. But you know looking back it really is fascinating, we used to have that and there was a big room we kept for that—I say big room, it seemed large to me at the time, it wouldn't now. And we had a big coal fire. Wouldn't it be luxury now to have a bath in a room with a coal fire?
Pete Murray
Yes, I must say. But there are the problems of having to heat the water and poor the kettle into the old bath. [end p2]
PM
Indeed, yes, and having to get the cold water as well. No, we made up this bathroom and there are many happy, warm memories. You see there was no television. I remember the day when we had a radio—I can remember life without radio. This was a tremendous advance, actually to have radio. But you see we didn't have television and so we talked to one another a lot. Our parents talked to us, we learnt from them. We shared experiences at the end of the day and Alfred Robertsmy father constantly teaching us, constantly teaching us by experience. Teaching us the lessons of life.
Pete Murray
What sort of programmes did you listen to? Do you remember the radio programmes?
PM
Yes, I can remember Arthur Askey, Playmates, Bandwaggon. I can remember ITMA, Tommy Handley and there was Much Binding in the Marsh which was Murdoch, all of these, they meant a tremendous lot in our life. And there was a variety show on Mondays and then there was a chap who used to, in that show, talk about his problems “What would you do chum?”
Pete Murray
Oh that was Bandwaggon, that was Sid Walker.
PM
Sid Walker, that's right—“What would you do chum?”.
Pete Murray
It sounds as though we listened to the same programmes.
PM
Yes, and then always in wartime, after the news there was what was called a Postscript. I can remember J.B. Priestley doing that Postscript, I can remember A.P. Herbert doing it, Quinton Reynolds.
Pete Murray
That's right.
PM
And the whole family gathered round and we listened to these things. It was very much a warm family life and talking. Children talked to parents and parents to children. We talked much more cross generation, it was a wonderful upbringing. [end p3]
Pete Murray
What about the cinema? Did you get a chance to go there?
PM
Yes, there being no television, cinema was an important outing. And we didn't have many treats as people do these days. There were little luxuries in our lives and going to the cinema was a great luxury. We didn't go very often, so it was a treat. But it would be a great treat because we would see all the sort of Fred Astaire Ginger Rogers films. I remember Jean Arthur, The Plainsman. I well remember Gone With The Wind for the first time, a marvellous film. And I well remember that wonderful film—we loved Leslie Howard, he was a marvellous performer—and all of a sudden this new star, Ingrid Bergman was shown to the world, Intermezzo, no, Escape to Happiness, a beautiful film.
Pete Murray
But Intermezzo, you're not very far wrong because that in fact was the theme from the film.
PM
Was it, yes?
Pete Murray
And that's what we're going to hear now. Music [end p4]
PM
I always wanted to be very good at tennis, but somehow never achieved it. It would have been very nice, because you can play tennis with two, you know with hockey you need a whole team, but I was just never good at tennis. I enjoyed it enormously but was never any good at it. We always listened to cricket. Always. That again was part of our life. Every Test Match we would listen to. There was a marvellous commentator, Howard Marshall, wonderful deep voice. And I can remember almost every ball played and Yorkshire of course prominent as always. I can remember the time when Hutton made his record. He just seemed to go on and on and I can remember that we had tremendous admiration for Bradman and we were always told that he played every ball as if it were the first one. The concentration was terrific. I was taught really that concentration was really quite a secret to doing well in life—really to concentrate and, of course, keep your eye on the ball is a well known phrase. These days we have so much more opportunity to watch sport on television and I watch golf and Match of the Day, always watch Wimbledon and will go whenever I can. But it is very important that we don't just become spectators, that people do something and play themselves.
Pete Murray
You don't have any time to play sport yourself, I suppose, do you?
PM
Alas no, not now.
Pete Murray
Have you been to any hockey finals at Wembley?
PM
Alas no, I haven't. I manage to get to Wimbledon usually, once a year. That's wonderful.
Pete Murray
When you left school you went to Oxford. And I believe that caused you quite a few problems, from your father's point of view, although he was the Mayor of Grantham, he wasn't a rich man was he? [end p5]
PM
Oh indeed no. No, no, no. We had to be very economical and save very hard and I got a whole series of grants and bursaries and scholarships to go there. Oh no, but then you see again I just stress this, that Alfred Robertsmy father in these days would have gone to university, he'd a very good brain. But in those days no. He left school at the age of thirteen, he had to make his own way. And he wouldn't have worked very easily for anyone else, which was why he had to start up his own business, but he gave a tremendous amount of his own life to voluntary work and was on the local council, was in the savings movement, was in Rotary, everything in which voluntary work is required he would be in and of course he played a large part in the church. Oh no again, I mean, just quite considerable sacrifices had to be made. Everything but everything was done for us.
Pete Murray
Did you find it strange going to Oxford at first, having not been away from home, so to speak?
PM
I found it the most fantastic opportunity. No, I did not find it difficult and this ties in with what I said earlier. We had a grocers shop—all kinds of people came to it and I used to go in there quite often after school with Alfred Robertsmy father and Beatrice Robertsmother and she also helped and we had one or two other people, and I just got used to talking to people. And it was quite a social occasion. People would gather there on Saturday evenings and talk. And of course my father was passionately interested in current affairs and we would always talk about current affairs. My goodness me, they were disturbing times. Now also again my father being on the local council whenever we had a great occasion he would always take me along with him. I remember Herbert Morrison coming to our town when he was Home Secretary. I remember A.V. Alexander, as First Lord of the Admiralty, coming to our town so I talked to him. I can remember the Silver Jubilee—I was only ten—of Mayor King George V, and Lord and Lady Brownlow—I think he was Mayor at that time—so one was taken along to talk. Anyone who was interesting, who came, I was taken along and introduced to them and I was passionately interested in everything. And they were very kind. I always make a point now of talking to children, if anyone brings their family along, I always talk to them because other people talked to me. I can remember Carl Brissan—he was a film star who came to our town and it was either the twenty-five year [end p6] Jubilee of King George V—I think that was it. When we had a big bonfire and he lit the bonfire. But I was taken along to talk and I talked with Aldermen. And one day, this is how I came into law, I was about sixteen and my father was on the bench for a time, on the bench that year, and do you know that the person who was Chairman of the Magistrates Bench was a lawyer, a Silk, a KC in those days, a Recorder, [Norman Winning - see The Path to Power, p79] and Daddy used to lunch with him at lunch time and I was taken along and talked. And I began to talk to this rather wonderful man who was our local small judge on the bench and I saw how justice worked. And by that time I was very good at science and said that I wanted to go to University on science, but having sat in his court and listened to this thing called justice and what should I do, but become fascinated with it. But I was already on the science side at school and I couldn't change, and do you know what he said to me? He said all right, I am a Silk and I am a Recorder, a small judge, and he said, I took physics at Cambridge first. You go and take your chemistry and then if you wish turn over to law. So much in my life has been influenced by the people whom I have met. And I did just that. I took chemistry and then I turned over to law. Influenced again. My father took me along trying to give my all the broader experiences. So to go back to the question you asked me “did I feel strange when I went to Oxford”. No I didn't. And I remember going on a train for the first time. In those days we had those great big steam engines and they pounded through Grantham Station. You could feel the power of steam and standing on the station was then, our local M.P., a very colourful person called Kendall and he won a by-election during wartime. And my father knew him. And my father had been up to talk in the factory of which Denis Kendall was the Managing Director and he turned to my father and said—I was travelling first class and he was travelling first class—when we get to Kings Cross I will look after your daughter and see that she gets across to Paddington all right if there's any problem. Of course when we got there everything was perfectly all right and I crossed to Paddington. But there again—Oh, it is so full of memories! Life, your future life, is made up so much of personal contacts and them passing their experience to you.
Pete Murray
What about the people you were with at Oxford? I mean there were some fairly well-known, colourful characters. [end p7]
PM
Fantastic. And again when I got to Oxford I found that it didn't matter what your background was, you were judged for what kind of person you are. Who was with me? There was someone there called the Honourable Anthony Wedgwood Benn. Someone there called Anthony Crosland. Edward Boyle was a contemporary of mine. Of course he became a famous politician and we served together in the House of Commons but unfortunately he died of cancer very recently. Shirley Williams just came just after me. Very interesting that two of the women who are quite prominent in politics, though I might say so, both went to Somerville College, Oxford. Then there were other people. The great drama critic Kenneth Tynan. I used to go to Oxford University dramatic shows and, my goodness, he was good. William Rees-Mogg, former editor of the Times, he was also up there. Peter Emery, now a Member of the House of Commons too. There were a whole lot of us, contemporaries. Kenneth Harris was also a contemporary. Ludovic Kennedy also a contemporary. And then when I went and started law, Robin Day and I were in the same Chambers. Fascinating.
Pete Murray
Then of course you went into politics and I believe the first constituency you actually …
PM
It was Dartford. Yes that is where I met Denis Thatchermy husband. I had always wanted to go into politics but never thought I would have the opportunity. I mean we had no such thing called a private income and they didn't pay Members of Parliament very much in those days. But then eventually they began to pay them and the opportunity to go into politics came very strangely. I was at a Party Conference and I just happened to be sitting next to the Chairman of Dartford and he said, “Well, why don't you apply?” So I applied and they chose me. I was only twenty-three at the time. It was a heavy Labour seat and the first night when I went to speak to be adopted I had to travel down from Colchester and I wasn't going to be able to catch a train back. And they said, “Oh, don't worry, there is a person in the audience who is very keen, his name is Denis Thatcher, after you have spoken he will drive you back to London and you can catch the train to Colchester from there”. And that was how it happened.
Pete Murray
The thing that fascinates me about politicians having been to the House of Commons on numerous occasions and particularly in the bar is the affinity between deadly enemies [end p8] on the floor of the House that seems to dispense with the feeling in the bar.
PM
You are quite right. We are, of course, very civil to one another and even friendly. I mean they are daft—the person who is a Labour Member of Parliament there when I was fighting there was a very nice man called Norman Dodds. And he and I met frequently in Dartford—I was the candidate, he was the Member. Indeed I remember on one occasion when the Mayor was giving the big Mayor's Reception at the Town Hall and there was dancing later. And he loved dancing and I also loved dancing. And it was quite a thing. I was introduced to him there for the first time and of course all the cameras were going click, click, click. And he said, “Will you dance with me?” And I of course said yes, and I think the orchestra with tongue in their cheeks struck up the tune “Jealousy”. It was a tango. Thank goodness I could dance a tango, you don't seem them danced very much now in dance halls, although you do on that marvellous programme, the dancing programmes, well you see I danced ”Jealousy” with him.
(Pete Murray announces the song “Jealousy” to bring back memories for the Prime Minister.)
Pete Murray
You must have both had a little smile about that.
PM
Oh, we did. And eventually of course I certainly left Dartford. But eventually I went to the House of Commons and he was very kind to me when I went into the House of Commons and gave me all kind of advice. He was a very kind person.
Pete Murray
There was another Labour MP who was a great friend of yours.
PM
Yes, Charlie Pannell, and I met him when I was first fighting—you see Dartford, in those days, you see also took in Erith and Crayford. They are two seats now. And I met Charlie Pannell there. He lived in Erith although he was the Member for Leeds. And I got to know him very well and he became my regular pair in the House of Commons. You know if you want to get away for a meeting in your [end p9] constituency or to an occasion then you have to go to one of your—the Members on the other side—and say, look can we both be together, can we both be away, at the same time? That's called a pair.
Pete Murray
Now, if I can go back. You worked as a scientist when you left Oxford. I believed you worked in a factory. Your hours were incredible. I mean just give us some idea of the sort of hours you were putting in at that factory.
PM
Well, we had to travel and I think …
Pete Murray
What time did you have to get up in the morning?
PM
We got up quite early because we used to have, we would get the bus at about quarter to eight and I would walk about quarter of an hour, twenty minutes to the bus station. And then we would get on the bus, I think at about half seven. And we had quite a way to travel, out to Manningtree. And I think we were in, we were certainly in before half past eight. But that's not terribly early.
Pete Murray
Yes, but then you were working until fairly late at night.
PM
Working until fairly late at night but then we would get back at about seven o'clock in the evening. It's not really too long, and of course I had to start then and do my legal studies.
Pete Murray
Now at that time were you married when you were doing that?
PM
No, originally—I started my legal studies before I got married. I had always remembered this conversation with the Recorder—Norman Winning his name was—I became fully qualified scientifically and I chose to work in a factory. I chose to. In our day plastics were developing and science was a thing of the future. And I didn't chose to stay doing research in university or anything like that. I wanted to go into the factory, into the hurly-burly of life. But I still remember this fascination that I had got with the law. But there was no question of just changing [end p10] over and doing another degree or another course. I had to earn my own living. And the only way therefore was at the end of the day when we'd finished our work in the factory and got home, one had then to sit down and start to learn some law. I remember doing if first by correspondence course. And it took quite a time and I had not completed it by the time I got married.
Pete Murray
Then you got married and were studying with the twins?
PM
Yes. It now comes back to me. We haven't quite got it right. I was doing the work in the factory, I was studying for the law and I never, never, never let my political work go because of this total fascination with politics, which I suppose really has been in me since the days when we discussed in the shop and everywhere in Grantham, the meaning, the significance of the events that were happening in those days. So my life consisted of working to earn a living. All right, we weren't [sic: worked?], as many many people do, we travelled, many people spend longer times than I did then travelling. I then also did some political work, voluntary, with the Conservative Association then. And always kept up, did quite a lot of speaking and also I started on my legal studies. I had a very very full life. But again it goes back to the thing. We were brought up to work, we were brought up to like work. And don't forget I had a Methodist upbringing and in those days Methodism was, I hope I shan't offend Methodists, was very very strict. For example Alfred Robertsmy father and my grandmother would have been horrified if one wanted to go out to a dance. Yes, my grandmother was very Victorian and we went to the dances for the League of Pity which was the NSPCC, but you just didn't go out to a dance or anything like that. And Methodism was, you were brought up to work. And not to enjoy yourself too much other than working. You know you never went to things for the purpose of enjoying it. You got your enjoyment from doing things for other people.
Pete Murray
When you had the children were you already qualified as a barrister? You were a tax barrister, weren't you?
PM
Yes. After I had fought two elections, Denis ThatcherDenis and I got married. By that time I had done some of my legal study, gave up my scientific work, carried on with my legal study, and then I had the Mark Thatcher & Carol Thatcherchildren. I was married in 1951, we had the children in 1953. I had not [end p11] completed my legal studies then. And I had the twins, I had completed my part one and I had the twins and I knew that unless I really made a strenuous effort to become fully qualified I should get caught up so much in looking after the family and looking after the children that I should exclude all other things. It's very tempting and a lot of women do it. I felt that I could do the two things if I really made an effort. I felt that I could not only look after the children but I felt that I must also use my other talents as well. Now the children were born prematurely and the early days, my goodness me, they were very very tiring indeed because of two of them, the two had to be fed at three hourly intervals and between that as well as running the home I would positively make myself get down to some studies—I made myself, it had to be an effort of will. Because I realised that if I didn't do it then I might just somehow lose all the training I'd had and it seemed such a pity to lose all that. We were lucky, we had help with the children. I am eternally grateful for that, I couldn't have done all I had unless I had help with the children. And we lived in London. So everything bounced right—I had help with the children, lived in London so it was easy to go and take some lectures and eventually by sheer effort of will and driving myself and staying up very late at night, but I had to because the children had to be fed in the middle of the night as well, I managed to take my finals. The children were born in August and I took my finals and got them in December. But I stress it was a colossal effort of will and I don't think I've ever worked quite so concentratedly. I hadn't a lot of time and therefore the concentration on what I was doing had to be total. And my goodness, it's stood me in good stead since then.
Pete Murray
I did say earlier on, you are a workaholic, there's little doubt about that. Now, to digress completely, what makes you laugh?
PM
I love watching the Ronnie Barker and Ronnie CorbettTwo Ronnies, I love it. Aren't they marvellous. You know when Ronnie CorbettRonnie sits alone in that chair and starts straight to camera to tell a story, it is one of the most professional, fascinating things I've seen. Then I love it when they sing—you know they have a great big scene towards the end when they sing and they're marvellous, they're so talented and I've been to see them on the stage too. They are wonderful. [end p12]
Pete Murray
You went to see them at the Palladium?
PM
Yes
Pete Murray
And Harry Secombe too is somebody that you admire?
PM
I always watch Harry Secombe if I possibly can. He shows, anything he's in, he makes you laugh, he's so cheerful. Isn't it wonderful when people are cheerful?
Pete Murray
He always is cheerful. Off as well.
PM
He always is cheerful. It's a very good lesson. You might just as well face things cheerfully and with optimism. You'll get through life much more easily if you do. He's wonderful. And then I envy his fantastic tenor voice. And he does so much good work. He's a Lords Taverner. I go to Lords Taverners sometimes and so does Denis ThatcherDenis. They do a tremendous amount of work for other people, for the disabled. They raise money, they raise money for disabled, they are a wonderful organisation. But his tenor voice—anyone who has that kind of voice has a tremendous gift. They are so fortunate
Pete Murray
Well, we're coupling the voice of Harry Secombe with a song from one of, I know, your favourite shows, My Fair Lady.
PM
My Fair Lady, isn't it, as you know, one of the most underrated songs on that—you don't hear quite enough of On The Street Where You Live. It's a lovely song. Music
Pete Murray
Yes, Sir Harry Secombe, or Sir Cumference as he calls himself, with On The Street Where You Live. I'm still talking to Mrs. T., Mrs Thatcher. We're not calling her Prime Minister for very obvious reasons because we're talking to Mrs T. as a person as opposed to a political figure. How do you relax, get away from work? Is there a possibility, do you have any time to do that?
PM
I don't get away from work very often because at the weekends I have to catch up with all the paper work and prepare for the following week. Because when you are looking forward you just have [end p13] to look at the things which are coming up and to know how you are going to approach them and what decisions you must make and how you must go about getting the right decision and you have to look for this strategically because there are always great international things coming up. So at the weekends you try to take a rather longer view and you must do that, you must always prepare yourself for the things which are ahead. And so there is a tremendous amount of work at the weekends. I just don't have a great deal of spare time. By choice I would listen to music or go to some great musical occasion, I would go, I love to go to Covent Garden, I only get about twice a year and once to Glyndebourne. Sometimes occasionally to a musical concert. But apart from that I like to do very practical things. Again it goes back to background and upbringing. We were always very practical. Beatrice RobertsMy mother was very talented in a practical way. She could make covers for our chairs, she could upholster furniture, she made our clothes, she had had a dressmaking business herself and I'm still very practical. I used to make some of my own clothes—I no longer do obviously—but I still like doing practical household things. I still like pottering round the kitchen and things. I obviously, being a woman in public life, you've also got to look after your clothes and see that they are tidy and ready for the next week. And that takes quite a bit of time and for me housework is a pleasure. It wasn't always a pleasure to make when you positively had to do it day after day after day but for me it is a pleasure because it is a relaxation. I like things to be tidy, I really like things to be tidy, I like to go to a drawer where something should be and find it there. My goodness, it's not easy. I like to go to the toolbox and see that there's an electrical screwdriver there. Not easy in our house because if Mark Thatchermy son uses anything it gets all over the place. And do you know, I always think your children are very very different from their parents. If you're tidy, your children tend to be untidy. Until they have their own home and then life changes.
Pete Murray
I wish I could say the same for me, but it doesn't I am afraid. Holidays, you take very short holidays I know.
PM
Yes, I take short holidays because I don't like to be away too long. Some people say look you really need a break, get away, take quite a long holiday away, and some people will take three weeks. I don't. I find that once you break the rhythm of life it's [end p14] much more difficult to get back to it again. And even when I'm half on holiday I still keep in touch but I just don't like it. I enjoy the most fantastically good health.
Pete Murray
And I hope you always will. Now, as far as the people in your life are concerned, your family, you've always described Denis as a brick, a solid brick behind you.
PM
Denis Thatcher 'sHe marvellous for a man behind a woman who's prominent in public. I think he's marvellous. He has his own very firm views and doesn't hesitate to say them. When I'm asked in Questions in the House, you know, indicating they may be didn't like a view that Denis expressed I just say, listen there is no monopoly of opinion in our household. He's entitled to his own views and he expresses them. Of course he does. Long may he continue.
Pete Murray
Well it's been a very traumatic time for you with your son Mark and it really affected you very badly.
PM
Oh when Mark Thatcherhe was lost in the desert it really was just terrible. It doesn't matter who you are or what job in life you do, when these things happen to you, you all feel the same. And it was very strange because he doesn't normally ring me the day before he is racing or anything like that, but I know this was a long one, and he rang me that night, the night before he started off. He rang me from Paris and I said I hope you're resting before you start off, and he said, “Yes, Mum, I'm in bed, I'll be perfectly all right, don't worry. I'll give you a telephone number where you can ring up and see how the race is going.” Strange, it's the first time he has ever rung me and I was just a little bit bothered about it. And then I've always thought that no news is good news on those things and then the first thing we heard that he was missing was when the Daily Express rang us up and rang up Carol Thatchermy daughter and said Mark hasn't been heard of for two days, he didn't go through the last checkpoint. We never, never, never heard anything from the organisers of the race. I heard only what was happening from the press and from radio and then we heard on the Monday, on the Tuesday, that he had been found and I still have a telegram saying he's found, he passed through a check-point in Mali, he's safe. And it was such a relief and then the next morning I turn on the radio, early usually about six o'clock to listen to the news and the first item on the news was all the reports [end p15] that Mark Thatcher has been found have been untrue, he has not been heard of for over six days. And I realised then that the organisation was dreadful, that there was nothing systematically happening and I said to Denis, look you simply must catch the first plane over and see what is happening. Because really if they didn't know where he was, the Sahara is not the best place to be. And I was very frightened that he might have had an accident and be somewhere and no-one could find him. They might not have enough water. I knew they'd be reasonably responsible in the way they tackled things and of course you never know what's going to happen to them at all. And you could not get it out of my mind, I mean your life flashes before you. You really stand on the brink then. You think the worst and then at that time you think if only it's all right. I don't think I'll have any worries personally if only it's all right. And then you realise that all the tiny little things you worry about really aren't worth worrying about, so long as you've got full health and strength and you are there, then it's all right. The poet said “one clear morn is gloom enough for being born” and it is. And the relief when he was found was just indescribable. And the kindness of people. The kindness. Letters poured in, messages poured in, and it means so much. I know now how much it means when you are in that kind of trouble, how much it means that other people are actually thinking of you and hoping with you and the kindness of other people overseas. Isn't it strange, when you're in trouble, everyone pulls together? And then he was found and just, I just felt on top of the world. And I don't worry now so much about little things, you spend a lot of your life worrying, having been through that and then I now realise every time I see a tragedy in the paper, we're lucky, our son was restored to us. And I know how anyone feels, if their son is missing, if a child is missing, and then you know there are some terrible cruelties and personal tragedies in life. Every day I look in the papers and read them, I know the agony they are going through. How fortunate we were. And Mark knows too. And you know we were in church the following Sunday, we usually go to our church at Chequers, and Mark came with us and our vicar said just a little prayer and we thank you that a son has been restored to his family. And I just heard Mark choke as a lump came into his throat. I thought, yes, now you do realise all the good will, all the prayers that were for you. And that they did help. I just hope never to have to go through it again. But I know what other people feel and I am only so thankful of the letters and messages we received. [end p16]
Pete Murray
I know that even recounting that moment I can see a tear fall from your eye, and from mine too. On happier note, your daughter Carol starts a new career tomorrow. Having been in Australia for a number of years …
PM
Yes, isn't it wonderful, I'm so thrilled. Carol ThatcherShe takes the view that she's my daughter and she positively will never pull any strings, she'll go to enormous lengths never to pull any strings. Everything she does she has to do by virtue of her own effort. And this has been her whole attitude and is really why she went to Australia because she wanted to do it on her own. She's a lawyer by profession, she took a law degree and she's a solicitor. But she didn't want to be a professional solicitor, she wanted to become a journalist. So she went to Australia and struck out on her own, made her own way, became a journalist on the Sydney Morning Herald, then wanted to widen her experience so became a television presenter of the current affairs programme, the morning current affairs programme on one of the television channels. And then I found—she loved it in Australia but it is such a long long way away and we felt we never saw her and said, “Look, won't you come home for a time? Maybe you would wish to make your future life in Australia but please do come home for a time,” and she's just come home. Now, life isn't easy and she's having to make her way by freelance journalism and to see if she could get also a job on television or radio, it's not very easy on television. It is particularly difficult for her being my daughter because people will think the views she expresses will have something to do with me. She's very very independent. She's as independent at her age as I was at mine. And so she went round and she applied and she makes her own initiative, she makes her own way. And she had to have two auditions for that job and she worked jolly hard at the audition. And I'm not surprised they are taking her on. She's good and she's had very broad experience. And she's very independent minded and she's thrilled and I'm thrilled she got it herself.
Pete Murray
Mrs Thatcher, thank you very much for giving us your time, your very precious time, to talk to us about your life and yourself and your own emotions.
PM
How very kind of you to give me the chance, there's such a lot more to say. We must do it again another time.
Pete Murray
The last piece of music … .